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Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

usatoday.com

71–80 of 110 posts

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engine computers can easily be reprogrammed to make the engine run at all sorts of different operating bands. You could easily detect state emissions equipment, since it must pull information from the ECU. To me- these devices are either pre-programmed operating modes that produce clean emissions but the vehicle would not operate under this tune (emissions testing is often not under load) and so once back on the road…

Manufacturers were doing this well before OBD2. They'd look for a condition where the car was started and then idle raised and held raised, for example. Once things like CANBUS became popular, as well as ECUs getting integrated with ABS/traction control, they'd look for drive wheels spinning and but not undriven wheels. When stability control systems became a thing, they could monitor steering angle and look for the…

> Tuners knew all about this shit because they disassembled ECU code and looked at ROM formats. They could point you right to the table used for when the ECU thought it was undergoing emissions testing.

I guess the EPAs awards aren’t that great.

I wonder if they also run cars sloppy when it detects something that resembles a drive-cycle for fuel economy testing. e.g. Stop charging battery. Limit A/C or turn on mild heat to reduce radfan load. Limit power steering force. Dim lights 10%. Limit acceleration (gotta be a big one).

Probably enough data out there to identify offenders by comparing real world fuel economy data to official fuel economy.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#72
post #52
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A combination of factors; cost, customer expectations, and convenience. It's easy to produce a lot of power, it's not easy to do so reliably and within emissions specs. That's where the cost comes in, and where customer expectations come in. If VW is going to be offering a 110 kW 2.0 liter engine, well, Mercedes-Benz can't come in and offer a 90 kW 2.0 liter engine just to meet specs. At the end of the day, margins a…

I’m in the UK. We have AdBlu pumps in the gas station. Just fill up fuel and AdBlu at the same time, it’s really easy.

Here in the western US we have em too. Diesel bowsers have a second blue hose attached. You put one in the fuel port, one in the def port, and then let them both fill up

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engine computers can easily be reprogrammed to make the engine run at all sorts of different operating bands. You could easily detect state emissions equipment, since it must pull information from the ECU. To me- these devices are either pre-programmed operating modes that produce clean emissions but the vehicle would not operate under this tune (emissions testing is often not under load) and so once back on the road…

Manufacturers were doing this well before OBD2. They'd look for a condition where the car was started and then idle raised and held raised, for example. Once things like CANBUS became popular, as well as ECUs getting integrated with ABS/traction control, they'd look for drive wheels spinning and but not undriven wheels. When stability control systems became a thing, they could monitor steering angle and look for the…

Sone today you live a dangerous life.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engine computers can easily be reprogrammed to make the engine run at all sorts of different operating bands. You could easily detect state emissions equipment, since it must pull information from the ECU. To me- these devices are either pre-programmed operating modes that produce clean emissions but the vehicle would not operate under this tune (emissions testing is often not under load) and so once back on the road…

Manufacturers were doing this well before OBD2. They'd look for a condition where the car was started and then idle raised and held raised, for example. Once things like CANBUS became popular, as well as ECUs getting integrated with ABS/traction control, they'd look for drive wheels spinning and but not undriven wheels. When stability control systems became a thing, they could monitor steering angle and look for the…

They DID.

"A $327.5 million settlement has been reached with Bosch, the supplier of the emissions software that was installed in some 2.0-liter and 3.0-liter Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche diesel vehicles. The Bosch Settlement follows similar settlements with Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche (called the “2.0-liter Settlement” and the “3.0-liter Settlement”, or together, the “VW Settlements”)."

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#75
post #29
post #5

Is there any detailed information anyone can find on what they allegedly did, at a technical level? "Defeat device" is such a broad category of term that it's useless for understanding the details of what it's claimed they did. The Justice.gov writeup [0] isn't any better. > The company allegedly installed defeat devices on 630,000 model year 2013 to 2019 RAM 2500 and 3500 pickup truck engines. The company also alleg…

I'm guessing they're doing it during state emissions certification. When they do those tests they hook up to your OBD2 port [1] and generally a tube goes onto your exhaust. It'd be pretty trivial to detect, "Cable is hooked up, exhaust has more back pressure. Tune engine to X mode." 1: https://www.progressive.com/answers/what-is-car-emissions-te...

I thought they went away with the tube testing once the OBD data got good enough. Trick to passing the tube tests was to take your vehicle on a nice long ride to get hot (especially the cat).

What I disliked about state emissions testing is that they didn’t do analysis/sampling of data to take an evidence-based approach to target testing against vehicles that tended to fail.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#76

There's no way to make a diesel or gasoline car that's not actively bad for the environment. Electric is the only way. (And maybe hydrogen, but that's quite a ways off)

Modern gasoline vehicles don't really release noxious emissions, at least if they are well maintained. Of course CO2 is not benign, but electric and hydrogen will also have CO2 emissions at this point, just further up the supply chain for the energy.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#77
post #65
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And no manufacturer has been able to achieve the technology to meet that level. Urea-injection seems to work (that's what Mercedes does). But it requires another tank and special equipment. And VW could meet the emissions requirements. That was the cheat. When they detected that they were being tested, they tuned the engine to meet emissions requirements. During normal use, the engine would make better power or eff…

Random idea. Change emissions requirements based on GPS coordinates. That's sort of what they do in shipping. Ships burn cleaner fuel in port. If a semi is driving around Los Angeles low emissions are important. In middle of Kansas not as much. That said phasing out diesels is better idea over the medium run.

That kinda happens as vehicles that can’t pass emissions get exported to states/areas that don’t have the testing.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#78
I have an old Dodge Ram with a Cummins 12 valve engine. The next generation version of my same truck came with a 24 valve engine and more emissions controls. The 24 valve Cummins engine is famous for the ability to re-tune and "delete" features on the engine for better performance and dirtier emissions.

The 12 valve I own only needs a screwdriver to change the fuel mix and increase horsepower. These engines are considered highly desirable because they are very simple with unusual durability (the design comes from Cummins industrial engine product line). When you see the a-holes on YouTube "rolling coal" it is typically from one of these Cummins engines.

These are older than the trucks mentioned in this article, but I wonder if Cummins continued to allow easy adjustments to defeat emissions controls.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#79
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet another reason the software running on these automotive systems should be free and open source. It would be great to see the control logic and know that it's doing the right thing.

This right here. The hardware and software should be open to public scrutiny, so that experienced practitioners can explore and weigh in.

I hope that you like ARXML mess with hundreds of MATLAB Simulink files sitting on top.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#80
post #16

Interesting that it's called systematic tricking when Cummins does it, with VW it's just criminal fraud?

US company caught by US regulator vs European company caught by US regulators.

And then Americans are surprised when Europe does not play ball with US big tech industry in EU.

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