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3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

minnesotareformer.com

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Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#71

Post by xvector »

gmac wrote: post #62
xvector wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Death sentence is absolutely not too much. It's an extraordinarily effective deterrent (see Singapore), and I don't know where the narrative comes from that it's not. Some people simply need to die.

Feels weird to get into a high-school debate about capital punishment here, but in essence: (a) Sometimes the wrong people get convicted. In this context, irreversible punishments suck. (b) “We’re going to kill you because killing people is wrong” is a weird look.

(a) Sometimes the wrong people get put in prison or solitary confinement for life too, which is effectively decades-long torture. It is arbitrary to draw the line at the death penalty, which generally causes less suffering. (Read statements from prisoners in lifelong solitary confinement.)

(b) It's not. Killing people that are evil is fine. Killing babies is wrong. You are intentionally simplifying the moral argument here to "killing people is wrong."

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#73

Post by haltist »

bsder wrote: post #47
acdha wrote: post #5

I increasingly think we need personal criminal liability for everyone in the management chain before this will end. As long as you can cash out your options before the reckoning, maybe even spin a division out to go bankrupt, there are just too many people who’ll chase the larger number. You need the guy who gets that internal memo to think that if he doesn’t report it to the EPA, he’ll spend the rest of his life won…

If companies are people, companies should be able to get the death penalty. We used to do this . Companies getting their charters revoked used to be something that wasn't uncommon. Unless you make the punishments for this an existential threat , it's just a cost of doing business.

How exactly do you get rid of 3M? They make so many chemicals necessary for modern consumer products that they are an irrevocable part of the global economy. There is no substitute for 3M. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually supply Intel, AMD, and other high-tech companies with chemicals necessary for photo-lithography. This is before we even get to what they supply to the military-industrial complex. Even if they don't make the end products I am certain they produce the necessary chemical precursors for so many industries that there would be no way to do anything about whatever crimes they have committed against nature.

It doesn't matter how much people complain about these companies. Their existence is a necessary evil because of how the global economy is structured.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#74

Post by lupusreal »

gmac wrote: post #62
xvector wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Death sentence is absolutely not too much. It's an extraordinarily effective deterrent (see Singapore), and I don't know where the narrative comes from that it's not. Some people simply need to die.

Feels weird to get into a high-school debate about capital punishment here, but in essence: (a) Sometimes the wrong people get convicted. In this context, irreversible punishments suck. (b) “We’re going to kill you because killing people is wrong” is a weird look.

Killing innocent people is wrong, killing murderers is good. Therefore we should give accused murderers fair trials before executing them.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#75

Post by mcny »

nier wrote: post #52
aaomidi wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think death sentence is actually a bit much here. Im generally against death sentences for heat of the moment situations. Think: murder. But in a situation where you’ve had legal teams working with you, where you’ve been planning this out, and where you know what the damage to this is etc., you’re basically a massive threat to society. The active planning, intent, and maliciousness is something that should be…

For me, the death penalty contains traces of mercy and life-long incarceration does not. You take away someone’s freedom for the rest of their life instead of putting them out of their misery.

I agree with you on death penalty but the parent also says removal of all assets.

So I think life in prison with no possibility of parole plus removal of all assets is ideal.

But I think this should only apply to the CEO and the board not everyone up and down the chain at least in the US where we have a “right to work”.

I don’t know if the law will allow an effective removal of all assets. I’m thinking of trust fund babies and such…

Edit: at least in the US, I think there is a possibility of a pardon or commutation by POTUS. I think we need to abolish that as well or at least it should be that if you pardon or commute the sentence for one person for a crime, it automatically makes the same change (pardon/commutation) for everyone convicted of that crime.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#76

Post by pigeonhole123 »

oakwhiz wrote: post #61
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read once about a corporate death penalty that I think should really be made into law: where a corporate entity commits something so heinous that a fine or what have you is simply not enough. I cannot find the link but the process would go about such as: - The entire entity would be taken on ownership by the government agency at play. No existing stakeholders would be paid anything for this and operations would con…

Sounds like a gift to short sellers.

Allowing fraud is a gift to speculators just as much. And criminals.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#77

Post by dexterdog »

mrweasel wrote: post #50
ponector wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of person? Regular millionaire/billionaire who know that they easily can get away with such decision using their wealth and/or power. Musk is totally ok to use materials mined by enslaved children of Madagascar. Or abuse his employees. Or fire people who try to organize a union. Or do plenty of other shady or illegal stuff. That kind of person.

Let me rephrase then: What is wrong in the brain of these people? They have to live on the planet too, they have friend and family, people they care... No? Normal people can't get away with things like this, because the decisions would haunt our dreams.

Which is why abnormal people are drawn to this kind of power.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#78

Post by xvector »

mrweasel wrote: post #50
ponector wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of person? Regular millionaire/billionaire who know that they easily can get away with such decision using their wealth and/or power. Musk is totally ok to use materials mined by enslaved children of Madagascar. Or abuse his employees. Or fire people who try to organize a union. Or do plenty of other shady or illegal stuff. That kind of person.

Let me rephrase then: What is wrong in the brain of these people? They have to live on the planet too, they have friend and family, people they care... No? Normal people can't get away with things like this, because the decisions would haunt our dreams.

You could apply the same argument to normal people. Normal people eat meat, which causes incredible, extreme amounts of torture and suffering to over 70 billion land animals per year.

The average person's dinner involved a tremendous amount of sheer pain and suffering, but it's satisfying to their taste buds, so they are fine with it, and will find ways to rationalize it.

Most everyone is a psychopath at some level, capable of discarding empathy or rationalizing evil when it serves their own interests. The only difference with the CEOs is that they're doing it for money, not for taste. It's quite easy to imagine someone moving the goalposts for what is worth causing suffering for.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#79

Post by Hackbraten »

lupusreal wrote: post #69
mrweasel wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Death sentence is probably a bit much, but if management takes actions that they know will kill or maim I don't see a reason why punishment shouldn't be the same as if you went out and hit someone with a hammer. In this case, force 3M to pay for everything, if they refuse or can't the government sells of the company to pay for the cost. I'm not a fan of the death sentence, but I have no problem killing of evil compan…

At least six babies were killed; that's mass murder. It was done in cold blood, planned out ahead of time. The death penalty was the only fitting sentence.

The death penalty is never a fitting sentence. Prosecutors and judges can make mistakes. Executing someone is something you can never undo.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#80

Post by userbinator »

I'm going to be the controversial one here and point out that despite saying they're "harmful", they've been everywhere for all these decades that a lot of other measures of quality of life have been increasing?

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluorooctanoic_acid#Global_... there is this interesting quote:

Most industrialized nations have average PFOA blood serum levels ranging from 2 to 8 parts per billion;[57] the highest consumer sub-population identified was in Korea—with about 60 parts per billion.[52] In Peru,[58] Vietnam,[59] and Afghanistan[60] blood serum levels have been recorded to be below one part per billion.

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