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Htmx Is a Erlang

matt.sh

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Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#71

Post by spinningarrow »

financltravsty wrote: post #58
spinningarrow wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot fathom how you arrived at that conclusion - there are so many systems that need to display the results of complex data queries where caching or precomputing the results does not make sense - waiting several seconds for results would be normal in those cases.

I will echo what the parent said: there’s no way your backend is taking seconds (fucking seconds) to return data unless there is something terribly wrong with your system. Complex queries should be optimized. The only time I have run into query issues is when: I was lazy, and didn’t want to optimize the query/schema/data layout and structures; the system was built by someone of questionable sanity and skillset; or th…

ChatGPT and many AI tools take several seconds to return responses.

I’m not saying it should always or even most of the time be the case (quite the opposite - I’m with you and parent on that) but to say that there is no situation like that strikes me as pretty odd.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#72

Post by neilyio »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #57
troupo wrote: post #49

I find all the marketing, advertising intentional or not, around HTMX really obnoxious. Does it have its merits? Maybe? I don't know, I can never get past the memes and shit-slinging. Or past them superficially co-opting terms they have nothing to do with like Erlang, or hypermedia. It's a toy mascarading as a serious tool.

if you want to just have a serious look at htmx, I recommend the book, which is free online: https://hypermedia.systems i am willing to admit that i get a little wild on the ol' twitters and understand if that isn't everyone's cup of tea (otoh, you probably wouldn't have heard of htmx if i went at things the normal way: i'm a solo dev in montana.)

This book has been one of my favorite reads of the year. Thank you for it.

I'm not sure why so much of this thread takes offense to your work. HTMX has been transformational for me. I'm grateful that you persevere.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#73

Post by financltravsty »

spinningarrow wrote: post #71
financltravsty wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will echo what the parent said: there’s no way your backend is taking seconds (fucking seconds) to return data unless there is something terribly wrong with your system. Complex queries should be optimized. The only time I have run into query issues is when: I was lazy, and didn’t want to optimize the query/schema/data layout and structures; the system was built by someone of questionable sanity and skillset; or th…

ChatGPT and many AI tools take several seconds to return responses. I’m not saying it should always or even most of the time be the case (quite the opposite - I’m with you and parent on that) but to say that there is no situation like that strikes me as pretty odd.

This was not always the case; and local models respond almost instantly.

In ChatGPT's case, I'm assuming they're throttling responses to not hemorrhage money.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#74

Post by recursivedoubts »

troupo wrote: post #70
recursivedoubts wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chapters 1 and 2 focus on what hypermedia is and how a hypermedia system works. My definition of hypermedia is "a media that contains hypermedia controls ": > A hypermedia control is an element in a hypermedia that describes (or controls) some sort of interaction, often with a remote server, by encoding information about that interaction directly and completely within itself. I think that's a pretty clear definition.…

> Chapters 1 and 2 focus on what hypermedia is and how a hypermedia system works. Yes, they do. And they turn around, slap an "Extending HTML As Hypermedia" on it as if that sentence made any sense, and then keep on pretending what they do has anything to do with hypermedia. > A hypermedia control is an element in a hypermedia that describes (or controls) some sort of interaction > I think that's a pretty clear defin…

:)

Here's what Fielding says:

"When I say Hypertext, I mean the simultaneous presentation of information and controls such that the information becomes the affordance through which the user obtains choices and selects actions"

htmx "extends" HTML as hypermedia by generalizing the idea of hypermedia controls in it, which is laid out pretty clearly in chapter 3. You might say it's a bad generalization, or generalizing hypermedia controls in general is a bad idea, but it's pretty straight forward:

- generalize the event that triggers the request

- generalize the HTML element that can issue the request

- generalize the type of HTTP request that can be made

- generalize the way the response can be placed in the page

I don't think it's reasonable to say that we pretend REST only applies to HTML when we present a completely different hypermedia, Hyperview, in our book as an example of a REST-ful system:

https://hypermedia.systems/hyperview-a-mobile-hypermedia/

It appears that you really don't like me at a personal level, which I understand: I don't like myself a lot of the time. However, i think if you stepped back from that fact, you'd see you are being a bit unreasonable here.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#75

Post by davedx »

couchand wrote: post #23
davedx wrote: post #17

It's powerful to have your front-end library automagically run code returned by your API, sure. But you can't hand-wave the security concerns of that away by ridiculing the people trying to discuss them. There is a fundamental difference between your server returning data versus returning code. If you don't want to accept that, fine, it's your project, or career, whatever. But if you conduct extensive ad hominems aga…

> But you can't hand-wave the security concerns of that away... What security concerns, exactly? > There is a fundamental difference between your server returning data versus returning code. If my server returns a bit of something, and then my application code running in the browser takes conditional action based on that return value, was it data or was it code?

Seriously? It’s data. Unless your client and server are Lisp

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#76

Post by tmcdos »

WkndTriathlete wrote: post #52
pcthrowaway wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't realize that a search engine needs to be able to predict 100% of the phrases a user might search for in order to be competent

And yet somehow Google, Bing, etc. manage to return results in much less than 3 seconds.

But then we have just one Google and one Bing rather than thousands of them.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#77

Post by troupo »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #74
troupo wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chapters 1 and 2 focus on what hypermedia is and how a hypermedia system works. Yes, they do. And they turn around, slap an "Extending HTML As Hypermedia" on it as if that sentence made any sense, and then keep on pretending what they do has anything to do with hypermedia. > A hypermedia control is an element in a hypermedia that describes (or controls) some sort of interaction > I think that's a pretty clear defin…

:) Here's what Fielding says: "When I say Hypertext, I mean the simultaneous presentation of information and controls such that the information becomes the affordance through which the user obtains choices and selects actions" htmx "extends" HTML as hypermedia by generalizing the idea of hypermedia controls in it, which is laid out pretty clearly in chapter 3. You might say it's a bad generalization, or generalizing…

> When I say Hypertext, I mean the simultaneous presentation of information

Doesn't come from his dissertation, does it?

Also, there's a reason hypertext and hypermedia are two different words.

> htmx "extends" HTML as hypermedia by generalizing the idea of hypermedia controls in it,

Indeed, you're creating your own custom DSL aka your own custom client to speak a custom protocol over the wire that only HTMX understands.

This is no different than someone doing exactly the same, but requesting JSON, XML or binary streams from the server, as long as their client knows how to deal with them.

> we present a completely different hypermedia, Hyperview, i

Ah yes. This is "different hypermedia", that there's no client for, but "many developers ignore the hypermedia features of the browser, in favor of building their web applications entirely in JavaScript." Unlike you, of course.

> It appears that you really don't like me at a personal level,

Until this moment in time I had no idea who you were and what you were doing. You were just some random text on screen.

If you are the author of HTMx, well, with this you just continue the same thing, again: acting as an overconfident teenager with a very superficial understanding of things, and taking everything as a personal affront.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#78

Post by masfoobar »

Maybe I am missing something, here.

Generally speaking - when you make an HTTP request - you are likely returning:

XML 1 foo

[or]

JSON { "users": [{ "id": 1, "name": "foo" }] }

[or]

HTML: 1 foo edit

[When using HTMX, you would add some additional tags. You are still just returning HTML]

  
    
      1
      foo
      edit
What makes this anymore (or any less) dangerous? What is the problem?

I guess responses is more in line with -- "they tooook our jooooowbs!"

From what I read elsewhere. "React creates jobs. HTMX doesn't"

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#79

Post by recursivedoubts »

troupo wrote: post #77
recursivedoubts wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

:) Here's what Fielding says: "When I say Hypertext, I mean the simultaneous presentation of information and controls such that the information becomes the affordance through which the user obtains choices and selects actions" htmx "extends" HTML as hypermedia by generalizing the idea of hypermedia controls in it, which is laid out pretty clearly in chapter 3. You might say it's a bad generalization, or generalizing…

> When I say Hypertext, I mean the simultaneous presentation of information Doesn't come from his dissertation, does it? Also, there's a reason hypertext and hypermedia are two different words. > htmx "extends" HTML as hypermedia by generalizing the idea of hypermedia controls in it, Indeed, you're creating your own custom DSL aka your own custom client to speak a custom protocol over the wire that only HTMX understa…

> Doesn't come from his dissertation, does it?

No, it came from a talk he gave entitled "A little REST and Relaxation":

https://www.slideshare.net/royfielding/a-little-rest-and-rel...

> This is no different than someone doing exactly the same, but requesting JSON, XML or binary streams from the server, as long as their client knows how to deal with them.

I don't disagree w/ that, so long as there are hypermedia controls imposed on top of those formats (which are not natural hypermedia w/ native hypermedia controls) and are being consumed by a client that implements the uniform interface properly (https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-clients/)

> This is "different hypermedia", that there's no client for

Hyperview includes a client, which is one of the reasons I think it will be a successful hypermedia, in contrast w/, for example, attempts to impose hypermedia controls on JSON but not providing a client to consume those controls. (See the above essay, where i discuss this)

> acting as an overconfident teenager with a very superficial understanding of things, and taking everything as a personal affront.

I try to be a humble man and i certainly have much to be humble about, and i appreciate the reminder that at times I fall into the sin of pridefulness. Pride goeth before the fall, and a haughty heart before destruction.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#80

Post by meowtimemania »

troupo wrote: post #49

I find all the marketing, advertising intentional or not, around HTMX really obnoxious. Does it have its merits? Maybe? I don't know, I can never get past the memes and shit-slinging. Or past them superficially co-opting terms they have nothing to do with like Erlang, or hypermedia. It's a toy mascarading as a serious tool.

HTMX is really pleasant to work with and in many cases means getting stuff done with way less code. I have an internal tool built with React and replaced it with HTMX. The HTMX version is much simpler and easier to add features. HTMX doesn't make sense for all use cases, but sometimes it's all around a better choice than something like React.
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