Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting • Hacker News Board

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#71

Post by gwright » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 4:18 PM UTC

calinet6 wrote: post #16

This appears to be a perspective issue. The writer took it as rude without mentioning the most important part: Was Katz right? We need more context, and we need less emotional argument. If the original presenter could effectively support his position then he would not have left the stage. And I would hope that Katz would not commit such a social atrocity without a very, very good reason. I don't find it hard to belie…

Was Katz right?

Answering that question doesn't really get you very far.

Katz could have politely disagreed without taking over the presentation.

Katz could have taken the author aside afterwards and shared his perspective.

Katz could have offered to assist with a revised presentation.

There are all sorts of ways to politely and tactfully correct someone. Doing it in the manner described in the original article doesn't seem like the best approach.

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#72

Post by ceol » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 4:19 PM UTC

scott_s wrote: post #43

ceol wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Katz was merely asking questions. From the article: > Speaker: Talk talk talk talk. Talk talk talk? Demo demo demo. > Katz: Wait, why are you doing it that way? You should be doing it this way. [...] Katz plugged in his own laptop, and proceeded to redo the demo. That's not the behavior of someone who is curious. It's the behavior of someone who thinks they know better. Whether or not they actually do,…

I'm separating "Why are you doing it that way?" from "Move over" because I see them as two separate things. There is also a spectrum of first. "You should be doing it this way" is on the rude side of what is acceptable in academic circles. That is, people will think you're rude for phrasing it that way, but the content of what you said is legit. A more polite version is "Did you consider doing it this other way? If s…

What I'm saying is even if the content is legit, you don't interrupt someone during their presentation. User smacktoward says this rather well further down in this submission's comments:[0]

> "Was Katz right?" is not the most important part. It's arguably not even relevant. If someone is presenting, and they say something that's incorrect, there are better ways to deal with it than pushing them off the platform and announcing that the Real Genius has arrived.

[0]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3832936

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#73

Post by jtc331 » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 4:19 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #40

At the highest levels, in academia, business, and the arts, the sort of behavior Yehuda exhibited is completely acceptable. If you respect the discipline/art/science enough, then you value truth over the ego of some lesser being. People who dislike the conflict in these kinds of interactions are also inclined to dislike conflict on the editorial page, preferring instead bland "objective" writing. The thing is, nothin…

You've set up a false dichotomy between "polite ignorance" and mean-spirited correction.

I don't think that the OP is suggesting that Yehuda shouldn't have corrected the presenter, but that he should have done it in polite way, i.e. "Have you considered doing it this way instead." People (like the presenter) are far more likely to respond positively and learn from someone who "teaches" rather than someone who ridicules that person for their stupidity.

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#74

Post by davidbalbert » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 4:20 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #60

davidbalbert wrote: post #21

This is a touchy subject. I think this kind of behavior is very counterproductive and we (programmers) seem to do it a lot. It's something that needs to be talked about and fixed. Miguel de Icaza wrote a great blog post about "well-actuallys" a year ago and it's definitely worth reading: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2011/Feb-17.html That being said, it makes me uncomfortable that an article called "Why you shouldn…

While I don't think I've ever managed to fully derail someone's presentation before, this is something I too am terrible about.

I do it a lot also. I try to catch myself, but I only succeed part of the time.

One of the best things I've done was giving it a name thanks to Miguel's blog post. With a name, others can call me out for doing it ("did you just well-actually me?") and I can also call myself out ("sorry, that was a well-actually").

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#75

Post by zupatol » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 4:20 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #40

At the highest levels, in academia, business, and the arts, the sort of behavior Yehuda exhibited is completely acceptable. If you respect the discipline/art/science enough, then you value truth over the ego of some lesser being. People who dislike the conflict in these kinds of interactions are also inclined to dislike conflict on the editorial page, preferring instead bland "objective" writing. The thing is, nothin…

> value truth over the ego of some lesser being.

This sounds better if you just say

> value truth over the ego

If the discussion is about someone being a lesser being, you're no longer talking about truth.

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#76

Post by slantyyz » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 4:20 PM UTC

kaiuhl wrote: post #46

davidbalbert wrote: post #21

This is a touchy subject. I think this kind of behavior is very counterproductive and we (programmers) seem to do it a lot. It's something that needs to be talked about and fixed. Miguel de Icaza wrote a great blog post about "well-actuallys" a year ago and it's definitely worth reading: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2011/Feb-17.html That being said, it makes me uncomfortable that an article called "Why you shouldn…

I totally agree. What doesn't get mentioned in the OP is just how incorrect the presentation was. If I was a ruby newbie, I'd want someone to stand up and say why the presentation, which was surely being presented as truth, was actually incorrect. In addition, publicly berating Yehuda seems really pointless given his huge contributions to our community. Let's be nice.

This isn't a simple binary decision of "yes, correct the presenter" or "no, don't correct the presenter"".

What you're ignoring is that Katz could have timed his criticism better. Katz could have simply been polite and let the speaker finish the presentation and then do a point-by-point breakdown of what his issues were with the talk AFTER the presentation was done.

The audience in this case will still get the facts, so to speak.

I don't know what the motivation of the speaker was to give the talk, but usually these presentations are well intentioned. Sometimes people just pick a topic they don't know about, do some research and then present their findings, as a means of learning themselves. We don't know what the situation was here. In any case, just let them finish, and then correct them. Is that so hard?

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#77

Post by zavulon » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 4:21 PM UTC

This kind of thing is really annoying. It's too frequent of a picture when I come to a meetup and someone gives a presentation, yet he's constantly interrupted by an obnoxious audience member who's hell-bent to insert himself into the conversation. This fellow will always proceed to correct the speaker, while foaming at the mouth, with one goal in mind: to show to everyone in the audience how right he is, how smart he is, and how much better he knows this stuff than everyone else, including the presenter.

This kind of thing really pisses me off because it serves as a basis for stereotypes. Most programmers know how to behave themselves in a social setting. But based on these few who really have no clue, stereotypes are born and thrive, and make things difficult for the rest of us.

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#78

Post by omgsean » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 4:22 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #9

Dear Ruby "community", no-one cares about your internal bickering. Much as I hate to admit it, Zed Shaw was right.

Have you considered that there are posts on Hacker News that aren't meant for your personal consumption and enjoyment but that may be of interest to others? As well, have you considered that this has as much to do with general interpersonal relationships as it does with Ruby?

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#79

Post by dchest » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 4:22 PM UTC

ebiester wrote: post #61

While I'd love to give Mr. Katz the benefit of the doubt, I also remember hearing him on a javascript podcast where he and Jeremy Ashkenas of Backbone.js fame were on, and Katz dominated the conversation. He just doesn't seem to have an understanding of the flow of conversation. And it's great that he's really smart, but it isn't beneficial to the audience.

He just doesn't seem to have an understanding of the flow of conversation.

Great, let's publicly shame him for it!

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#80

Post by DannoHung » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 4:22 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #40

At the highest levels, in academia, business, and the arts, the sort of behavior Yehuda exhibited is completely acceptable. If you respect the discipline/art/science enough, then you value truth over the ego of some lesser being. People who dislike the conflict in these kinds of interactions are also inclined to dislike conflict on the editorial page, preferring instead bland "objective" writing. The thing is, nothin…

> the sort of behavior Yehuda exhibited is completely acceptable

Is it acceptable or is it tolerated? There are polite and impolitic ways of handling any situation where you need to explain why or how someone has erred. Expending the energy to do it in a way that doesn't make you seem like an asshole tends to be better because it makes people want to work with you.

Also, on a somewhat related note, I have personally found that the people who are rudest at providing criticism tend to be the ones most incapable of taking criticism, regardless of their capacity or skill in any subject matter.