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The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

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Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#71

Post by 1970-01-01 »

kiba wrote: post #31
jameslk wrote: post #21

> The Guardian has removed a letter written by Osama Bin Laden, explaining his war against the United States is partly because of its support of Israel, after it had gone viral on TikTok. If I recall correctly, the terrorists attacked the US because they "don't like freedom". That was the narrative on TV nonstop and any wavering from full support of the wars or "supporting the troops" was tantamount to supporting ter…

The terrorists don't like the US for many reasons, some of them seem legitimate. Either way, they're still folks who hijacked planes and crashed them into the towers. The irony being "terrorists" are just viewed as "martyrs" and "freedom fighters" on the other side of the coin, and every bomb dropped fighting them resulting in civilian deaths creates new terrorists/freedom fighters, who then go on to attack again kil…

>The terrorists don't like the US for many reasons, some of them seem legitimate.

This is a good quote. However you can say this about any critic, journalist, voter, or billionaire. We should be worried about the ones that don't like it 24/7/365, and have their entire life's meaning centered around not liking the US.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#72

Post by defrost »

rootusrootus wrote: post #65
Natsu wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong letter, try this: http://web.archive.org/web/20231102065031/https://www.thegua... More reporting here: https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/osama-...

Huh. I had never read that. Thanks for sharing. He almost sounds like he's trying to be reasonable, and then proceeds to go completely batshit insane. It's hard to feel much sympathy for people who hate us so much and want to subjugate us to their own belief system.

Which pretty much nails the feelings toward residential schools.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#73

Post by throwaway48r7r »

arp242 wrote: post #58
naijaboiler wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to get so mad when I heard that simplistic rubbish “they hate us because of our freedoms” How could any person with even a high school education ever repeat that nonsense, much less accept it as true. People hate you because you’re doing or supporting something that hurts them

> People hate you because you’re doing or supporting something that hurts them So all the people who hate gays do that because gays are doing or supporting something that hurts them? I don't think you believe that, but I'm just following your argument here. "They hate us because of our freedoms" is simplistic rubbish yes, but so is "people hate you because you’re doing or supporting something that hurts them". Recall…

[flagged]

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#74

Post by Aurornis »

jameslk wrote: post #21

> The Guardian has removed a letter written by Osama Bin Laden, explaining his war against the United States is partly because of its support of Israel, after it had gone viral on TikTok. If I recall correctly, the terrorists attacked the US because they "don't like freedom". That was the narrative on TV nonstop and any wavering from full support of the wars or "supporting the troops" was tantamount to supporting ter…

This is extraordinarily reductive and unnecessarily cynical.

> If I recall correctly, the terrorists attacked the US because they "don't like freedom". That was the narrative on TV nonstop

A significant part of that particular brand of terrorism is indeed hostile to cultures that don’t share their religious and cultural beliefs. We can’t reduce all of their motivations to singular slogans that fit neatly into TV commercials, but it is actually true that they are aligned against a secular international order with associated freedom of religion, among many other freedoms.

If you were trying to make a cheeky point about how a private entity choosing to take down Osama Bin Laden’s letter is somehow infringing on our freedoms, that’s ironic because they are a private business that is free to choose what they do and do not publish. Ironically, freedom of the press is something very much absent in regimes where these terrorists operate.

> The irony being "terrorists" are just viewed as "martyrs" and "freedom fighters" on the other side of the coin

Not that simple. You think Palestinians love being beholden to the terrorist leadership that refuses to allow elections, is known for stealing their humanitarian aid to enrich themselves on the order of billions of dollars, and operates safely from a foreign country?

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#75

Post by concinds »

From Wikipedia:

> Raymond Ibrahim, as a researcher at the Library of Congress, found a significant difference between Al Qaeda's messages in English directed to a Western audience and al Qaeda's Arab messages and documents directed to an Islamic audience. The Western-directed messages listed grievances as grounds for retaliation employing the "language of 'reciprocity.'" Literature for Islamic audiences contained theological motivations bereft of references to the acts of Western nations.[55][56]

But people will trip over themselves to swallow literal propaganda.

The underlying assumptions is also highly racist: "Americans view them as terrorists, but the Muslim world views them as freedom fighters!" No, Al-Qaeda supporters view them as freedom fighters. Surely people know that Bin Laden doesn't represent every Muslim, and that most of the Muslim world didn't support the 9/11 attacks?

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#76

Post by rootusrootus »

naijaboiler wrote: post #45
user982 wrote: post #17

David Cross: "I don't think Osama bin Laden sent those planes to attack us because he hated our freedom, I think he did it because of our support for Israel and our ties with the Saudi family and all our military bases in Saudi Arabia. You know why I think that? Because that's what he fucking said. " ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggUXa2UVNYc )

I used to get so mad when I heard that simplistic rubbish “they hate us because of our freedoms” How could any person with even a high school education ever repeat that nonsense, much less accept it as true. People hate you because you’re doing or supporting something that hurts them

Have you read the letter? "Because you are attacking us" is on the list, yes. But then it goes on to specifically call out our freedoms. Pretty much using those words, even.

> How could any person with even a high school education ever repeat that nonsense, much less accept it as true.

I'd guess that most high schoolers can read the letter.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#77

Post by digianarchist »

Natsu wrote: post #19
derbOac wrote: post #11

This is outrageous to me, especially coming from a news outlet. As an American, though, I'm wondering if there's some UK legal context I'm missing?

It went viral on TikTok, apparently, and some people there are finding out that Osama was a communist who wanted to attack Jewish control of capital and now are endorsing that.

Sounds like the lamest reason for removing the article. I hope that's not true.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#78

Post by markisus »

nverno wrote: post #26
rootsudo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One persons terrorist is another persons freedom fighter. Your thought pattern only adds more fuel to the fire that there is wrong think.

No, I think it's pretty clear what a terrorist does - target civilians on purpose. But, terrorists can certainly be freedom fighters as well or vice versa.

Bin Laden makes a point about this. He argues that the American public is culpable for the actions of its government because America is a democracy.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#79

Post by scythe »

jameslk wrote: post #21

> The Guardian has removed a letter written by Osama Bin Laden, explaining his war against the United States is partly because of its support of Israel, after it had gone viral on TikTok. If I recall correctly, the terrorists attacked the US because they "don't like freedom". That was the narrative on TV nonstop and any wavering from full support of the wars or "supporting the troops" was tantamount to supporting ter…

>If I recall correctly, the terrorists attacked the US because they "don't like freedom".

The funny part is how close, and yet how far, this is to/from the truth. You know that old quip about freedom versus security? The visceral motivation for a bunch of well-educated and well-paid reactionaries (which is who they were — the leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood and its affiliates have university degrees and grew up in nice houses) was that Americans were safe and their countrymen were not. They hated us for our security; they didn't care about freedom.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#80

Post by Aurornis »

tehnub wrote: post #52
jameslk wrote: post #21

> The Guardian has removed a letter written by Osama Bin Laden, explaining his war against the United States is partly because of its support of Israel, after it had gone viral on TikTok. If I recall correctly, the terrorists attacked the US because they "don't like freedom". That was the narrative on TV nonstop and any wavering from full support of the wars or "supporting the troops" was tantamount to supporting ter…

From wikipedia [0]: >Raymond Ibrahim, as a researcher at the Library of Congress, found a significant difference between Al Qaeda's messages in English directed to a Western audience and al Qaeda's Arab messages and documents directed to an Islamic audience. The Western-directed messages listed grievances as grounds for retaliation employing the "language of 'reciprocity.'" Literature for Islamic audiences contained…

Why would you include only that section but omit the one above it that contains a theory that the motivations were indeed religious and intended as acts against those who don’t share their religious and cultural beliefs (aka the West and other locations with freedom of religion)

> Daniel Benjamin and Steven Simon, in their book, The Age of Sacred Terror, argue that the 9/11 terrorist attacks are purely religious. They are seen as "a sacrament ... intended to restore to the universe a moral order that had been corrupted by the enemies of Islam." It is neither political nor strategic but an "act of redemption" meant to "humiliate and slaughter those who defied the hegemony of God."

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