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Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

arstechnica.com

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Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#71

Post by addicted »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #27

I suspect that this is more a "certain managers wanted certain types of employees," as opposed to a systemic, companywide decree from Up High (like IBM's ageism). Apple just makes too damn much money to worry overmuch about salaries. If anything, a lot of managers like H1Bs, because they can drive them like slaves. I've seen exactly that, in front of my own eyes. It's pretty disturbing, if you are a manager like me.

Or more relevant to this, Apple wanted to retain the employee that had been working for them for 3-5 years instead of replacing them with a completely new hire because of bureaucratic legalese.

The PERM application was almost certainly submitted for an existing employee, who had most likely been employed with Apple for somewhere between 2-4 years. Thanks to bureaucratic nonsense they were then required to open up that position to outsiders instead, and if they found someone else who could be hired fire the person that had been doing the job well enough that Apple was willing to pick up tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees to go ahead with their PERM application.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#72

Post by rexpop »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #58
rexpop wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, ten years back[0]: > In one email exchange after a Google recruiter solicited an Apple employee, Schmidt told Jobs that the recruiter would be fired, court documents show. Jobs then forwarded Schmidt’s note to a top Apple human resources executive with a smiley face. > Apple, Google, Adobe and Intel in 2010 settled a U.S. Department of Justice probe by agreeing not to enter into such no-hire deals in the future.…

Good point. I am willing to stand corrected, but I've also seen what I've seen.

I think the third option is more plausible; neither executive decree nor individual managers' particular penchant drives these trends, but rather widespread cultural trends that individual managers act on subconsciously.

We're likely talking about favoring H-1B visas; predominantly Indian, and predominantly male, with a median age of 34.[0] Do individual hiring managers have individual, personal biases? Yes, but what do you call a collective group who all exhibit the same bias? We can speculate about their personal reasons, but keep in mind that H-1B workers are inordinate victims of wage theft! [1]

> Thousands of skilled migrants employed by HCL Technologies—an India-based IT staffing firm that places H-1B workers at top corporations like Disney, FedEx, and Google—appear to have been underpaid by at least $95 million

So perhaps it is simple economics: precarious immigrant workers are easier to steal from.

0. https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/data/H1B_...

1. https://www.epi.org/press/new-epi-report-reveals-wage-theft-...

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#73

Post by kristopolous »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #27

I suspect that this is more a "certain managers wanted certain types of employees," as opposed to a systemic, companywide decree from Up High (like IBM's ageism). Apple just makes too damn much money to worry overmuch about salaries. If anything, a lot of managers like H1Bs, because they can drive them like slaves. I've seen exactly that, in front of my own eyes. It's pretty disturbing, if you are a manager like me.

Isn't the foreign national's status kind of captured at the discretion of the employer?

It sounds like a larger power asymmetry and as an employer, you want that as large as possible.

I mean it also increases stress on both ends, which affects executive function so the parties become handicapped by the relationship, but that's apparently less valuable than the large power differentials to many.

I wonder if there's quantitative studies of firms performances with respect to this. If the theory is right, it's long term one of the more disadvantageous strategies. (Using Apple as N=1 doesn't cut it as a study here)

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#74

Post by jboy55 »

shadowgovt wrote: post #38
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #24

I'm pretty sympathetic to Apple here. The article makes it sound like they did this for no reason, but the point of these hidden PERM positions is to be escape valves for the bonkers H1B system, which otherwise requires that skilled, valuable employees get booted out of the country after 3-6 years. If the government doesn't want Apple jumping through loopholes they should pass a more reasonable skilled visa program.

Still a bit hard to explain why Apple appeared to be hiding these jobs from qualified native candidates, refugees, and asylees.

These 'Jobs' are already filled. Someone on an H1B, who's working at the job, in some cases for years, asks for the company to get them their green card. The company now has to advertise that job, and take applicants on the job.

Theoretically if they find a qualified candidate they have to fire the worker who asked for PERM, and hire the candidate. Since PERM applications are seen as a perk for good employees, and having to fire the employee who asked for PERM if the process finds someone, companies hide the job applications, and find any reason to reject any applicant.

The whole process is ridiculous.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#76

Post by davidw »

koolba wrote: post #39
davidw wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Markets and auctions are often good ways of allocating things, but a big flaw with this is that there is still some arbitrary, "magic number" of H1B visas to auction. The current number is not derived from anything empirical, it's just a number some politicians picked.

> The current number is not derived from anything empirical, it's just a number some politicians picked. That’s fine too. If it’s too low, companies can lobby to have it increased. If it’s too high, workers can lobby to have it reduced.

That's thinking of it like some kind of optimal number though, which really isn't the case anyway.

There is no fixed sized pie. How many big tech companies were founded or run by immigrants or their children?

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#77

Post by JAlexoid »

dfadsadsf wrote: post #43
tomohelix wrote: post #33

Reading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certification is not the same labor certification done in H1B. PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process and it costs a lot more money than anything related to H1B. The reason is because it leads to a green card, not just a work permit. Often, it requires an a…

You are writing like we are talking about rocket scientists. PERM applies to both EB2 and EB3 (so in real world anyone making from as low as $50k+/year depending on role qualifies) and most bodyshops apply for green card for all employees - it's just part of business cost. For EB2 PhD is not needed - MS from online paper mill is enough. For EB3, any degree works. It's not tens of thousands in cost - it's below $10k a…

Why should someone making 700k be any different than an 80k employee?

Nurses make way less than 700k and should probably be the absolute top of the list.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#78

Post by JAlexoid »

lessbergstein wrote: post #75

All the FAANG and similar corps have been doing this for decades at this point. Our government works for them. This judgement is a joke designed to save face.

If US government worked for FAANG, you'd have a much more streamlined process...

But the fact is, that no one is happy with the immigration process. It's utterly inhumane and expensive.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#79

Post by jonathankoren »

bubblethink wrote: post #44
tomohelix wrote: post #33

Reading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certification is not the same labor certification done in H1B. PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process and it costs a lot more money than anything related to H1B. The reason is because it leads to a green card, not just a work permit. Often, it requires an a…

>PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process It's not rigorous or demanding; it's a mostly pointless bureaucratic exercise in bogus paperwork where lawyers and the gov. make bank. From the article : It also required all PERM position applicants to mail paper applications, even though the company permitted electronic applications for other positions," the DOJ said. >Apple actually felt it was worth it Apple doe…

> it's a mostly pointless bureaucratic exercise in bogus paperwork where lawyers and the gov. make bank

I love how people always think that The Government™ does things to make money, rather some congressman from the Bible Belt just engaging in straight up xenophobia.

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