Overheating datacenter stopped 2.5M bank transactions • Hacker News Board

Re: Overheating datacenter stopped 2.5M bank transactions

#71

Post by CyberDildonics » Tue, Nov 07, 2023, 9:03 PM UTC

someplaceguy wrote: post #65

CyberDildonics wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lightning allows you to have an effectively limitless transaction rate Transactions that don't count and aren't useful to anyone until they become a bitcoin transaction, and that's still expensive and slow. No one cares about it because it is terrible technology that doesn't actually solve anyone's problems, because the people that made it made the problems in the first place.

> Transactions that don't count and aren't useful to anyone until they become a bitcoin transaction, I have no idea why you're making such an obviously false assertion. These transactions obviously "count" and are useful to the entities running those 15K Lightning nodes (many on behalf of multiple customers), which can all transact amongst themselves over the network, even without touching the Bitcoin network (or occ…

which can all transact amongst themselves

I can trade IOUs with a bunch of people in my local cult, but they aren't money until someone makes an actual USD transaction.

Re: Overheating datacenter stopped 2.5M bank transactions

#72

Post by someplaceguy » Tue, Nov 07, 2023, 9:12 PM UTC

CyberDildonics wrote: post #71

someplaceguy wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Transactions that don't count and aren't useful to anyone until they become a bitcoin transaction, I have no idea why you're making such an obviously false assertion. These transactions obviously "count" and are useful to the entities running those 15K Lightning nodes (many on behalf of multiple customers), which can all transact amongst themselves over the network, even without touching the Bitcoin network (or occ…

which can all transact amongst themselves I can trade IOUs with a bunch of people in my local cult, but they aren't money until someone makes an actual USD transaction.

> I can trade IOUs with a bunch of people in my local cult

Lightning transactions are not based on IOUs.

IOUs can be defaulted upon, while BTC received over Lightning cannot.

Also, you need the cooperation of the other party to redeem IOUs. Lightning transactions don't require cooperation for settlement, they can be settled at any time by any of the parties.

All of this means that the BTC that is exchanged over Lightning is just as valuable as any other BTC, unlike IOUs.

> they aren't money until someone makes an actual USD transaction

That's because your definition of "money" is USD, so your sentence is a meaningless tautology.

It's like saying "raw beans aren't real food until someone cooks them". Uhm, sure, but does that mean raw beans aren't valuable or that you can't easily convert them into food if necessary?

And what's your point even? This point is equally applicable to the first layer.

BTC received over Lightning can easily be exchanged for USD if you want, or (even easier) for BTC in the first layer, so why does this point matter at all?

Re: Overheating datacenter stopped 2.5M bank transactions

#73

Post by eli » Tue, Nov 07, 2023, 10:01 PM UTC

someplaceguy wrote: post #69

eli wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need a network at all. Just email me who you want to transact with and I'll create a row for them.

Ok, so can I now redeem the BTC that you sent me earlier please, so that I can spend them in the first layer (or the second one)? Given that nobody else seems to want to use your third layer. The fact that I even have to ask you already demonstrates how shitty your third layer is compared to Lightning, not to mention all the other obvious ways in which it's infinitely worse.

Typical Second Layerist. This is the future of money we're talking about, but you'd rather live in the past.

Re: Overheating datacenter stopped 2.5M bank transactions

#74

Post by CyberDildonics » Tue, Nov 07, 2023, 10:06 PM UTC

someplaceguy wrote: post #72

CyberDildonics wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which can all transact amongst themselves I can trade IOUs with a bunch of people in my local cult, but they aren't money until someone makes an actual USD transaction.

> I can trade IOUs with a bunch of people in my local cult Lightning transactions are not based on IOUs. IOUs can be defaulted upon, while BTC received over Lightning cannot. Also, you need the cooperation of the other party to redeem IOUs. Lightning transactions don't require cooperation for settlement, they can be settled at any time by any of the parties. All of this means that the BTC that is exchanged over Light…

That's because your definition of "money" is USD, so your sentence is a meaningless tautology.

No, btc is money too, lightning transactions are useless until you sync them with the main network. Skip the middle man that no one wants. It has been 10 years, no one wants this, it doesn't solve anything. Every other currency has bigger blocks and never had this problem in the first place.

Re: Overheating datacenter stopped 2.5M bank transactions

#75

Post by someplaceguy » Tue, Nov 07, 2023, 10:18 PM UTC

eli wrote: post #73

someplaceguy wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so can I now redeem the BTC that you sent me earlier please, so that I can spend them in the first layer (or the second one)? Given that nobody else seems to want to use your third layer. The fact that I even have to ask you already demonstrates how shitty your third layer is compared to Lightning, not to mention all the other obvious ways in which it's infinitely worse.

Typical Second Layerist. This is the future of money we're talking about, but you'd rather live in the past.

I know you're trolling and I even found your comments somewhat humorous, but I hope you're not misleading yourself (or others) into thinking that you have a valid point here or that your "third layer" scenario is in any way comparable to Lightning in anything except the most superficial ways...

In any case, seeing that I don't have a valid signed BTC transaction from you (because your 3rd layer suuucks), you don't want to allow free exchange between your layer and the upper layers, and I wouldn't want to bother with court litigation even if you were serious, well, have a nice day and good luck with your third layer lol

Re: Overheating datacenter stopped 2.5M bank transactions

#76

Post by someplaceguy » Tue, Nov 07, 2023, 10:26 PM UTC

CyberDildonics wrote: post #74

someplaceguy wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can trade IOUs with a bunch of people in my local cult Lightning transactions are not based on IOUs. IOUs can be defaulted upon, while BTC received over Lightning cannot. Also, you need the cooperation of the other party to redeem IOUs. Lightning transactions don't require cooperation for settlement, they can be settled at any time by any of the parties. All of this means that the BTC that is exchanged over Light…

That's because your definition of "money" is USD, so your sentence is a meaningless tautology. No, btc is money too, lightning transactions are useless until you sync them with the main network. Skip the middle man that no one wants. It has been 10 years, no one wants this, it doesn't solve anything. Every other currency has bigger blocks and never had this problem in the first place.

> lightning transactions are useless until you sync them with the main network.

This is absolutely false. Why do you even think this??

Heck, have you never seen people buying real world stuff with Lightning transactions in El Salvador?

Are you aware that if you receive BTC over lightning, you can spend them over lightning, with a different party, without hitting the main network?

> Skip the middle man that no one wants.

What middle man? Is the middle man in the room with us?

> no one wants this, it doesn't solve anything

False and false.

15K entities want this (at least, i.e. not counting hosted wallets). And it solves the limited transaction rate, which you were complaining about.

> Every other currency has bigger blocks and never had this problem in the first place.

And when they get moderately popular, the size of their block history becomes prohibitively expensive to download and verify.

All while not really fundamentally solving the problem, but rather only allowing a slightly faster transaction rate which would still not be able to compete with VISA (as an example).

Re: Overheating datacenter stopped 2.5M bank transactions

#77

Post by c_o_n_v_e_x » Tue, Nov 07, 2023, 10:33 PM UTC

dan_can_code wrote: post #16

I wonder what the cost of a datacenter within Singapore is? The cost per sq/m in that country, which is the most expensive in the world, must be huge.

Singapore DCs build vertical to save on footprint. Quite a few DCs were built on the west side of the island where it's industrial and land is/was cheaper.

Re: Overheating datacenter stopped 2.5M bank transactions

#78

Post by bandyaboot » Tue, Nov 07, 2023, 10:35 PM UTC

Of course they blame the mistake of the single contractor rather than their own inadequate system monitoring.

Re: Overheating datacenter stopped 2.5M bank transactions

#79

Post by c_o_n_v_e_x » Tue, Nov 07, 2023, 10:39 PM UTC

latchkey wrote: post #34

Scoundreller wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it because it costs the operator a lot to run one or because they can charge a lot? (I guess over time those should converge, but sometimes takes a while or doesn’t)

All of the above. Space/Power/Staff is just more expensive there. We also had a lot of trouble because a couple of our Dell servers had issues and it took some time to figure out how to get them repaired. There was just a lack of urgency there too.

Comparatively speaking, I would expect SG DC staff to be lower cost than western countries.

Power is the killer, and it's doubly bad. Not only is it expensive, you're using a lot of power to keep things cool given ambient temp fluctuates typically between 24-33C, 60%-90%Rh 24/7.

There was a moratorium on new DC builds in Singapore, so there's also a huge demand/premium on rack space in SG.

Re: Overheating datacenter stopped 2.5M bank transactions

#80

Post by CyberDildonics » Tue, Nov 07, 2023, 10:56 PM UTC

someplaceguy wrote: post #76

CyberDildonics wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because your definition of "money" is USD, so your sentence is a meaningless tautology. No, btc is money too, lightning transactions are useless until you sync them with the main network. Skip the middle man that no one wants. It has been 10 years, no one wants this, it doesn't solve anything. Every other currency has bigger blocks and never had this problem in the first place.

> lightning transactions are useless until you sync them with the main network. This is absolutely false. Why do you even think this?? Heck, have you never seen people buying real world stuff with Lightning transactions in El Salvador? Are you aware that if you receive BTC over lightning, you can spend them over lightning, with a different party, without hitting the main network? > Skip the middle man that no one wan…

What middle man? Is the middle man in the room with us?

The middle man is a layer that no one wants and it is not in the room with us now because no one wants it.

15k "Entities" means a bunch of VMs spun on the same servers.

And when they get moderately popular, the size of their block history becomes prohibitively expensive to download and verify.

This is where the technical rubber meets the road with all the lightning sycophants. This is insanely untrue and it never has been. No one is ever able to prove this with numbers, they get out the playbook of dealing with a claim they can't back up.

Bitcoin right now has the bandwidth of a 28.8 modem. At one point single transactions cost more than the space to store the entire chain. Normal people don't even need to sync with the main chain if they don't want to. The actual numbers of bandwidth and storage of this argument are so far removed from reality I can't believe people still say stuff like this. It's pure propaganda.