@2:10
"not even the soap operas from F1 could outbrake the ABS system, but on a motorcycle ..."
So this video starts with a lie to justify its clickbait title.
Out-braking the ABS myth [video]
71–80 of 136 posts
Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are a lot of knock-on effects. For instance, a lot of drivers prefer to swerve rather than brake ... because they're afraid of getting hit from behind, because everyone is tail-gating.
For this precise reason I like to drive with tons of buffer to the car ahead. Given the fact that I am usually in a sports car, I know I can brake much faster than most people around me. Should I need to come to a complete stop, I can control the braking distance to make sure the cars behind me are not only aware that I'm coming to a full stop, which gives them the time/distance they need to brake, but it also gives…
> An added bonus is that most of time the impatient drivers will just go around me and I don't need to worry too much about tailgaters.
I so wish this were more true; I've been tailgated for 10s of miles in the right lane on a freeway with light traffic that was never fewer than 3 lanes for the entirety of that distance.
Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
Right, but if the pedal suddenly starts pushing back, are you naturally expecting that? I was involved in three collisions where I failed to stop in time, and all three times the pedal pushed back. I didn't really expect it the first time. Talking about 90s and early 2000s cars, so not brake-by-wire.
> Right, but if the pedal suddenly starts pushing back, are you naturally expecting that? Under hard braking conditions? Yeah. Especially since we have quite a lot of snow and ice here every year, you do sorta get used to the ABS feel and crunching sound. I once had a close encounter on snow where some idiot came way too fast a downhill and slid onto my lane. Pretty sure I kept my foot planted on the brake while goin…
Geography matters; there are people who came of age during the recent western drought that have driven a total of less than an hour in rain; my wife (who grew up in California) first drove in the snow in her late 20s.
Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]
#74FortNine on HN! I love it when two different aspects of my life collide! For the HNers who don't know much about motorcycles, in the motorcycling world there's a big argument whether ABS is a net good or not. The old-timers tend to say "learn to ride your bike, you can beat ABS." Manufacturers site statistics saying ABS saves lives. This video is good in that it shows old-timer braking + ABS gives the best of both wo…
> ...just slamming on the brakes isn't the best strategy for emergency stopping
It seems like there is no technical reason why phased braking couldn't be added to a more advanced ABS system. Early car ABS systems were also much worse for stopping distance than threshold braking, but more advanced systems have made up much of the difference.
Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]
#75FortNine is great but the conclusion in this video is a little silly. The best result comes from threshold braking with ABS enabled. Yeah no shit. As described in the video, motorcycles perform funny under braking. If you slam the brakes too fast, you have very little grip. ABS kicks in and you’re not stopping. If you progressively brake correctly, you transfer load to the front tyre and increase grip. ABS kicks in,…
The average car doesn't actually have more grip than the average motorcycle. More surface contact != More traction. Grip in a motorcycle is only really limited by gravity. That's still far better than most cars. The average motorcycle (or bicycle, for that matter) will have little problem hitting 35 degrees lean and therefore produce lateral G forces exceeding that of a typical car. Same is true for deceleration, the…
A car with one wheel locked up has a lot more grip than a motorcycle with one wheel locked up. That might be an obvious non-sequitur, but when we are talking about ABS, it applies.
Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
"In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back collisions. Once I pushed so hard the break light sensor had to be replaced." I think full braking should be part of driver training. A lot of people I know are very hesitant to brake full force and I think a lot of accidents happen because people don't really brake all out when needed. As f…
Shortly after buying a car, I always go a large, empty parking lot late and night, get up to about 30 mph and stop as hard as I can. I want to understand what it feels like before I get into a panic situation. I only buy a car every 10 years on average, so it's interesting to see the progress in braking. My current car (a 2014 model) stopped so quickly and so violently that it frightened me. Everything not tied down…
Similarly, when it snows I like to find a parking lot and practice a few skids before I drive any real distance.
Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
"In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back collisions. Once I pushed so hard the break light sensor had to be replaced." I think full braking should be part of driver training. A lot of people I know are very hesitant to brake full force and I think a lot of accidents happen because people don't really brake all out when needed. As f…
Shortly after buying a car, I always go a large, empty parking lot late and night, get up to about 30 mph and stop as hard as I can. I want to understand what it feels like before I get into a panic situation. I only buy a car every 10 years on average, so it's interesting to see the progress in braking. My current car (a 2014 model) stopped so quickly and so violently that it frightened me. Everything not tied down…
The vibration in the brake pedal can also be surprising to drivers who haven't triggered ABS before. And it can vary quite a bit depending on manufacturer and age of the vehicle.
Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]
#78I did a anti-slip course where we learned dosed breaking to reduce break distance. And once a circuit racing course where the instructor just told me to break with all force available. The latter stuck. This instructor logic was, only if you are a pro driver you actually can outperform ABS. In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back c…
"In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back collisions. Once I pushed so hard the break light sensor had to be replaced." I think full braking should be part of driver training. A lot of people I know are very hesitant to brake full force and I think a lot of accidents happen because people don't really brake all out when needed. As f…
My teacher made me do a full force brake during my training. It was more intense than I had anticipated, and my teacher forgot that he still had his sunglasses on his head, which promptly smashed into the windshield :D
Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]
#79I did a anti-slip course where we learned dosed breaking to reduce break distance. And once a circuit racing course where the instructor just told me to break with all force available. The latter stuck. This instructor logic was, only if you are a pro driver you actually can outperform ABS. In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back c…
In a modern ( In the past, this was likely true when ABS systems weren't able to control individual wheels. They can do that today, can check for wheel lock-ups and react dozens of times a second, and can therefore compensate for changing grip at different parts of the road during the entire stopping process. In formula 1, where ABS has been banned, drivers have the capability to manually adjust brake balance (front/…
> In a modern (There is an old SAE paper published by Chrysler that I can't find at the moment. IIRC, it was published in 1968 or 1969, and evaluated their new all-wheel[1] ABS system (later to be sold on the 1969-1973 Imperial).
The gist of it is that on most surfaces relevant passenger cars, ABS gives somewhat ~shorter~ [Edit: longer ] stopping distances but the difference is minimal compared to a trained professional driver, and both are significantly shorter than locking the wheels (what a non-pro is likely to do in a panic situation)
On ice, locking the wheels produces stopping distances that are several times greater than threshold braking. Wet pavement (especially asphalt) is better for ABS, too, though not as extreme as ICE. Importantly, threshold braking also enables the driver to maintain directional control on all surfaces, especially when the left and right wheels have different amounts of traction. ABS enables the driver to concentrate on steering while the computer adjusts the brakes.
However, on dry concrete, as well as gravel or snow, locking the wheels does produce somewhat shorter stopping distances. (Concrete tends to be aggressively textured, almost like sandpaper; gravel and snow can build up a "ramp" ahead of a locked wheel)
The only problem with locking for emergency stops is that 1) you wear the tires down to the cords after about 10 such emergency stops from 60 mph on dry concrete; and 2) the vehicle tends to spin. If the driver should happen to back off the brake pressure while partially spun, the vehicle will depart the road before they can react... so if you're going to lock the wheels, you have to really commit to it.
[1] Chrysler had 4-wheel ABS 10 years before Mercedes' "first car in the world with 4-wheel ABS", but Chrysler had computer logic to release brake pressure on both rear wheels if either one slipped (it had sensors in both rear wheels), which is how Mercedes was able to claim a "first" with their system that simply treated both rear wheels independently.
Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
"In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back collisions. Once I pushed so hard the break light sensor had to be replaced." I think full braking should be part of driver training. A lot of people I know are very hesitant to brake full force and I think a lot of accidents happen because people don't really brake all out when needed. As f…
This might be a little too far, but I sometimes say to my friends that a minor crash should actually be part of driver training. Modern cars feel extremely safe, and nearly drive themselves, so many people do not take driving as seriously as they should, and not as seriously as they do after they have their first collision. Perhaps being required to actually use 100% braking power to pass is enough :) In this respect…
> because motorcycles require a higher-level of attention and are significantly more dangerous to operate than a car.
For the driver. Cars are more dangerous than motorcycles for everybody but the people inside/on it, which means that swerving and braking exercises are actually much more necessary for car drivers than for motorcycle riders