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Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

nature.com

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Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#71

Post by ClumsyPilot »

aifooh7Keew6xoo wrote: post #33
RetroTechie wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just fertilizer: "In addition to its use in the fertilizer and chemical industries, ammonia is currently seen as a potential replacement for carbon-based fuels and as a carrier for worldwide transportation of renewable energy." Long-term grid storage? Publication: 22 July 2022 Anyone know if maybe some pilot / small scale production facility has been set up in the mean time? I've read about a farm that produced i…

Where are all the people that complain about the dangers and impracticality of hydrogen when the topic of using a corrosive gas that poses an immediate danger to life and health at concentrations as low as 300 ppm as a fuel comes up? They're trying to avoid using the stuff in industrial refrigeration it's so nasty, and yet here we are gleefully considering rolling down the highway with it in the cheapest vessel indus…

> danger to life and health at concentrations as low as 300 ppm

Well its not like you can put any petrochemical fuels in you coffee

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#72

Post by ianburrell »

Retric wrote: post #41
aifooh7Keew6xoo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are all the people that complain about the dangers and impracticality of hydrogen when the topic of using a corrosive gas that poses an immediate danger to life and health at concentrations as low as 300 ppm as a fuel comes up? They're trying to avoid using the stuff in industrial refrigeration it's so nasty, and yet here we are gleefully considering rolling down the highway with it in the cheapest vessel indus…

At atmospheric pressure Ammonia liquifies at −28 °F (−33.3 °C), Hydrogen −423.17 °F (−252.87 °C). That alone is a vast improvement. You can build a car/boat/aircraft that keeps its Ammonia fuel tank cool with minimal effort however it’s wildly impractical with hydrogen. Add the issues with hydrogen embrittlement and Ammonia starts to look trivial by comparison. People deal with industrial quantities of Ammonia on a r…

You don’t have to keep it cool. Ammonia has similar profile to propane. It is liquid at 7-14 bar. We build pressure tanks like that all the time for propane.

Ammonia is probably too unsafe for cars and boats. But anything filled by professionals like trains or ships would work. But might work to have tank exchange system like with propane.

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#73

Post by ForgedEngine »

PumpkinSpice wrote: post #38
aifooh7Keew6xoo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are all the people that complain about the dangers and impracticality of hydrogen when the topic of using a corrosive gas that poses an immediate danger to life and health at concentrations as low as 300 ppm as a fuel comes up? They're trying to avoid using the stuff in industrial refrigeration it's so nasty, and yet here we are gleefully considering rolling down the highway with it in the cheapest vessel indus…

I don't think it's realistic as a fuel for cars, but "worldwide transportation" means more than that. I suspect they're talking about container ships, tankers, and such. Ammonia is easier to liquify than hydrogen, and is in many respects easier to handle. However, it's definitely not something you want to have a spill of at a gas station or in your garage, and for that reason, it probably won't have "consumer" uses.…

Use compressed air or NOx as oxidizers for delayed combustion in engines. Not only would it provide a means of storing energy for ICEs, but it would also eliminate pumping losses on the intake stroke.

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#74

Post by gpm »

oldbbsnickname wrote: post #50
rational_indian wrote: post #37

>150 ± 20 nmol s−1 cm−2 Isn't this miniscule? Is this commercially viable? Edit: The molecular mass of nitrogen is 28, so 1 mol is 28 grams, so 150 nmol is 28 x150 nano grams = 4.2 micro grams. How much gas is this?

Incorrect in multiple respects. The molar mass of N is 14.006747 g/mol, while ammonia is 17.03052 g/mol. Gas expands to fill the container, so it's only worth discussing in mass terms. It's rate of production over the area of the catalyst. Put another way, that's 1.5 ± 0.2 mmol/m²s or 25.5 ± 3.4 mg/m²s. 24 hours of production over a catalyst with an area of 1000 m² would create 25 ± 3.4 t. That's about the product we…

Any idea how tightly can these cells likely be packed in 3d? Is 1000 m² likely to be 1 m³ or 1000 m³?

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#75

Post by bluGill »

alwayslikethis wrote: post #66
lazide wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anhydrous ammonia is much worse, creating rolling clouds of ground level deadly gas for long distances. And being very flammable. And explosive. Gas doing 2 of those 3, and diesel only 1.

Correction: Ammonia is not flammable since the flash point is significantly above room temperature. It would only be explosive if you consider the pressure vessel exploding, but we also have natural gas powered cars which also have pressurized cylinders. The main real issue is the toxicity.

Who cares of it explodes, just breathing the stuff is deadly.

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#76

Post by ianburrell »

aaron695 wrote: post #24
londons_explore wrote: post #2

Big if true... This could enable fertilizer production with no CO2 emissions. The numbers in the paper suggest that it might prove cheaper than natural gas based production which is common today. Fertilizer production is 2.1% of all CO2 emissions right now.

> Big if true... Could you explain exactly why you would say this? Working past their fake news headlines like 100%. Hydrogen is almost 100% and that's not big if true. We are decades away for renewable electricity only for our electric needs. Then you have oil and many other things electric can replace which are worse than gas. What about this is big? In a dream world of unlimited electricity everything is easy, lik…

We are decades away from needing this. But we need to generate ammonia without fossil fuels for fertilizer and feed stock.

Also, we need a fuel for long distance transport like ships when batteries won’t work. Ammonia will always be cheaper than synthetic fuel because no carbon doesn’t have to come from air, and it stores better than hydrogen.

There may be lots of surplus electricity in the future but there will also be a lot of demands for carbon capture, hydrogen, long term storage, and chemical processes.

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#77

Post by darkclouds »

aifooh7Keew6xoo wrote: post #33
RetroTechie wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just fertilizer: "In addition to its use in the fertilizer and chemical industries, ammonia is currently seen as a potential replacement for carbon-based fuels and as a carrier for worldwide transportation of renewable energy." Long-term grid storage? Publication: 22 July 2022 Anyone know if maybe some pilot / small scale production facility has been set up in the mean time? I've read about a farm that produced i…

Where are all the people that complain about the dangers and impracticality of hydrogen when the topic of using a corrosive gas that poses an immediate danger to life and health at concentrations as low as 300 ppm as a fuel comes up? They're trying to avoid using the stuff in industrial refrigeration it's so nasty, and yet here we are gleefully considering rolling down the highway with it in the cheapest vessel indus…

[dead]

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#78

Post by lazide »

alwayslikethis wrote: post #66
lazide wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anhydrous ammonia is much worse, creating rolling clouds of ground level deadly gas for long distances. And being very flammable. And explosive. Gas doing 2 of those 3, and diesel only 1.

Correction: Ammonia is not flammable since the flash point is significantly above room temperature. It would only be explosive if you consider the pressure vessel exploding, but we also have natural gas powered cars which also have pressurized cylinders. The main real issue is the toxicity.

Nope. Anhydrous ammonia between 18-25% is literally ‘explodes like gas vapor’ type explosive/flammable.

[https://www.worksafebc.com/en/resources/health-safety/risk-a....] [https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/1994-....]

It does have a higher ignition point than gas. But one a spark can definitely reach. It’s been a common problem in industry where ammonia gets used a lot (refrigeration in particular).

BLEVE’s are also a problem too of course. And the toxic nature of breathing it in! Haha.

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#79

Post by lazide »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #58
lazide wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anhydrous ammonia is much worse, creating rolling clouds of ground level deadly gas for long distances. And being very flammable. And explosive. Gas doing 2 of those 3, and diesel only 1.

Diesel is none of those things. I have extinguished a fire with diesel.

Diesel is definitely flammable. I works great as an accelerant.

It isn’t as easily flammable as gas, and doesn’t have easily autoignitable vapor like gas.

I’m guessing you dumped a lot of it on something without a lot of thermal mass?

If you did the same on a bonfire, you’d have a different story.

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#80

Post by lazide »

gimmeThaBeet wrote: post #61
lazide wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anhydrous ammonia is much worse, creating rolling clouds of ground level deadly gas for long distances. And being very flammable. And explosive. Gas doing 2 of those 3, and diesel only 1.

I agree, it's kind of a different class of threat for everyday people. Not assuming it would be the same, but picturing a spill at a gas station. Spilling gas is a problem, but at least it's just sort of there . If you get an ammonia leak and it forms a vapor cloud, I don't think most people would know how to deal with that. I'll bet your spilled gas likely won't migrate into the intersection. But on the plus side, w…

For sure - definitely doable, and certainly not the worst industrial chemical used at large scale. But not super consumer friendly.
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