The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression • Hacker News Board

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#71

Post by sokoloff » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:24 AM UTC

api wrote: post #61

somewhereoutth wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is not supply and demand for houses - there are plenty enough to go around (though often in the wrong place). The issue is that a sizeable underclass is being created that have no wealth, not least because what wealth they did have has been funnelled to the very wealthy. For example, medical bills. For example student loans. For example zero interest rates with zero wage inflation meaning accommodation cost…

The issue is absolutely supply and demand for houses, otherwise housing would be affordable for more people. Housing markets are local. Their supply and demand dynamics are local. Affordable housing in Kentucky does not help people in San Francisco or Seattle unless everyone can telework. Unaffordable housing is a major contributor to inability to build wealth. In most cases it’s no high paying jobs or unaffordable h…

It’s not needed for everyone to be able to work remotely. A large subset of people being able to do so should make affordable housing in one location be helpful in other areas.

It takes time and confidence that the remote work is widespread and durable, but it doesn’t have to be across every field.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#72

Post by robertlagrant » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:26 AM UTC

fnimick wrote: post #60

Ensorceled wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the standard conservative "big government" and "young people today don't want to work" rant. > The problem is government regulation. In some places, it's almost impossible to build new houses due to regulations. Regulation yes, but it's not the lack of building; we're building like crazy all over North America. Many new homes are "lost" and become second or third homes for the wealthy or airbnb rentals. Regul…

Agreed. We're in this mess because of unregulated capitalism, but sure, removing even more regulations will definitely solve it! (for the people who are fortunate enough to "have a venture" goes unsaid - the rest will be left poor, and they deserve it, for they weren't good / useful enough) There is absolutely an argument to be made here about regulatory capture with respect to zoning laws, parking minimums, etc maki…

> We're in this mess because of unregulated capitalism, but sure, removing even more regulations will definitely solve it!

How can there be regulations to remove if it's unregulated? There are hundreds of thousands of regulations.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#73

Post by api » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:27 AM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #41

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t attribute this to immigration. Generally (eta: in my understanding in the usa where this study also is) immigrants are job creators and entrepreneurs, and take less from the system than native born people do. I otherwise agree the homeowning NIMBY class who want to retain neighborhood character or whatever suck, because as a consequence they are restricting housing. I also want to point the finger at corpo…

> Generally immigrants are job creators and entrepreneurs, and take less from the system than native born people do I don't want to generalise things, but since you're doing it yourself: In France migrants and descendant of migrants are between 50% and 100% more unemployed than the rest of the population. They also represent 28% of social spending despite being 12% of the population https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiqu…

The same is not true in the US. It’s probably a cultural difference. Anyone can come to America and become American, but if you are not French it’s pretty damn hard to become French. Migrants can’t integrate as easily so they become an underemployed class.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#74

Post by loup-vaillant » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:27 AM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #41

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t attribute this to immigration. Generally (eta: in my understanding in the usa where this study also is) immigrants are job creators and entrepreneurs, and take less from the system than native born people do. I otherwise agree the homeowning NIMBY class who want to retain neighborhood character or whatever suck, because as a consequence they are restricting housing. I also want to point the finger at corpo…

> Generally immigrants are job creators and entrepreneurs, and take less from the system than native born people do I don't want to generalise things, but since you're doing it yourself: In France migrants and descendant of migrants are between 50% and 100% more unemployed than the rest of the population. They also represent 28% of social spending despite being 12% of the population https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiqu…

Be very careful how you frame things. Here’s another framing:

1. Migrants and their descendants are poorer than average.

2. Social spending is higher among poor people, because that’s the whole point.

3. Disproportionately poor people represent a disproportionate amount of social spending, duh.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#75

Post by thfuran » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:28 AM UTC

epistasis wrote: post #32

cyanydeez wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In America, it looks like real estate is becoming a victim of capitalism: companies buy properties, convert them to rentals, the collude with each other to "maximize" the value of those rentals. Then they claim the real problem is zoning codes so they can buy up more property just to expand their monopoly. Homelessness is the a low water effect caused by inflation.

This is not caused by companies. This is caused by individual homeowners exerting local control over the amount of housing in their small local area. The few companies making money off this are just piggy-backing on the homeowners who drive the political process. Private equity saw what homeowners have done in the US and thought "hey we can benefit from this regulatory capture without even having to do any of the wor…

Private equity may own a fairly small amount of the total housing stock, but there are metros where 20+% of home sales over the last year or two were to investors. That's surely enough to distort the market.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#76

Post by peoplefromibiza » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:30 AM UTC

api wrote: post #61

somewhereoutth wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is not supply and demand for houses - there are plenty enough to go around (though often in the wrong place). The issue is that a sizeable underclass is being created that have no wealth, not least because what wealth they did have has been funnelled to the very wealthy. For example, medical bills. For example student loans. For example zero interest rates with zero wage inflation meaning accommodation cost…

The issue is absolutely supply and demand for houses, otherwise housing would be affordable for more people. Housing markets are local. Their supply and demand dynamics are local. Affordable housing in Kentucky does not help people in San Francisco or Seattle unless everyone can telework. Unaffordable housing is a major contributor to inability to build wealth. In most cases it’s no high paying jobs or unaffordable h…

> In most cases it’s no high paying jobs or unaffordable housing, pick one

isn't this another effect of inequality of wealth distribution?

Suppose you live where high paying jobs are, but people getting high pays contribute proportionally and schools, medical bills, etc. are affordable, there would be a lot more families that could funnel the money saved to housing, instead of having to chose.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#77

Post by lo_zamoyski » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:32 AM UTC

jongjong wrote: post #16

Part of the problem is government regulation. In some places, it's almost impossible to build new houses due to regulations. Some portion of the population wants to see house prices continue to increase and they will vote for politicians who will implement policies which will support that agenda. Of course this happens at the expense of another, also large portion of the population who do not own a house and have to…

> The other problem is related to the role of debt in modern society.

I.e., state-sponsored usury.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#78

Post by epistasis » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:33 AM UTC

Kretinsky wrote: post #67

epistasis wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's difficult to lump together home-owning yet anti-home-building wealthy boomers with the working boomers who are now becoming homeless. Generational abstractions are unbelievably leaky.

Given that there aren't infinite ressources, shouldn't we prioritize housing families, that prepare the future, rather than the elderly?

With housing, the problem isn't so much that we can't afford to build it easily, the problem is that we have made it illegal to provide housing.

We have a shortage not because it is expensive, but because we regulated a shortage into existence.

We do need some subsidy programs to help those with the lowest incomes or no incomes. But those will become easier to provide once we allow enough housing to be built and lessen the rentier extraction that comes from having an unnecessary shortage.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#79

Post by voidwtf » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:33 AM UTC

jongjong wrote: post #16

Part of the problem is government regulation. In some places, it's almost impossible to build new houses due to regulations. Some portion of the population wants to see house prices continue to increase and they will vote for politicians who will implement policies which will support that agenda. Of course this happens at the expense of another, also large portion of the population who do not own a house and have to…

This can’t be a real, thought out, response. I’m living in Florida. I will agree with you that rent-seeking and increasingly abusive landlords are a huge problem here. However, the largest drivers of pricing out retirees in my anecdotal observations is uncontrolled healthcare, insurance, and food costs. The electric companies have also increased their rates and been allowed to add insane flat infrastructure recovery costs for storm damages.

In the last two years the following has happened: The same box of cereal increased from ~$3.75 to ~$6.59 and gone from 19oz to 17oz.

The electric company got an 11% rate increase approved and an additional ~$20 storm surcharge added. (The surcharge is in addition to the existing ~$8 storm protection fee which was supposed to cover storm damages and infra improvement).

Vehicle insurance rates increased by ~20%.

Homeowners insurance increased by ~40%.

Health insurance and prescriptions have increased by insane, unquantifiable amounts. (Rates didn’t just increase, but benefits on plans were changed so significantly as to completely invalidate any previous cost-benefit-analysis. Coverage is no longer predictable due to ridiculously arbitrary rejections of coverage. A single asthma prescription increased from ~$20 to nearly ~$150 a month.)

What you see a problem of government regulation I see as a problem of rampant greed and market manipulation to benefit a single class of individual. I watched the market respond to a crisis by increasing customer costs and turning the last couple years into their most profitable ever.

I agree with you however that housing has been essentially weaponized, and I believe we’re quickly entering the age of the landlord. It’s preposterous that any person can be homeless while another person owns 50+ properties and provides little, to zero, value to society. It’s preposterous that we’re allowing collusion and price fixing in the rental market via 3rd party property management companies. It’s preposterous that rent amounts for a modest home or apartment require incomes and credit scores that only ~5-10% of the population has.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#80

Post by btreecat » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:34 AM UTC

jongjong wrote: post #16

Part of the problem is government regulation. In some places, it's almost impossible to build new houses due to regulations. Some portion of the population wants to see house prices continue to increase and they will vote for politicians who will implement policies which will support that agenda. Of course this happens at the expense of another, also large portion of the population who do not own a house and have to…

Claiming there's a problem "with regulations" and it's also "the government's fault" is like saying "I'm hungry, have access to food, but actually doing the work to prepare the food and then eat the food, that's just not appealing."

The body that created and enforces the regulations can also change them to make things easier. It's not a one direction street.

Additionally I don't see much data (certainly none you point to) that supports much of what your claiming. How certain are you that your position is one based on the information at hand vs your feelings on the subject?