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Antarctic sea-ice at 'mind-blowing' low alarms experts

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Antarctic sea-ice at 'mind-blowing' low alarms experts

#71

Post by NhanH »

nxm wrote: post #62
wallhack wrote: post #33

Vote out any policy maker who impedes the response to climate change. This is not something we fix as individuals, with feel-good home solutions, recycling, or planting trees. Large industry is destroying our world, on purpose, because of greed. This only gets fixed through policy and regulation. Vote.

How do I vote out Chinese and Indian policy makers where bulk of coal power plants are continuing to be built?

China is the #1 builder in all renewable (and nuclear too) by a significant margin

You are going to need to also propose a solution beyond "stay poor" for the country.

Re: Antarctic sea-ice at 'mind-blowing' low alarms experts

#72

Post by Rnonymous »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #63
Rnonymous wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate on your world view or are you just trolling? Progress and capitalism optimize for value or $, and have no attention for the environmental cost as long as those are not put into regulations. You don't agree with that?

Capitalism could work, if the framework was setup to allocate the environmental impact to the company using that resource. A 'credit' system worked to stop NOX and Acid Rain, no reason it couldn't be used to reduce CO2. Have to separate "Capitalism" the concept, from the "I'm changing the rules just for me to profit". "Capitalism" can work well with regulations. The people that are against regulations are not "pro-Ca…

Completely Agree, Capitalism combined with right boundary conditions ie. limits, regulations, credit systems, or whatever, have to be used. The current system rewards those that manage to make use of the 'commons', and by that way socializing the costs (pollution, waste, etc.) while privatizing gains.

Re: Antarctic sea-ice at 'mind-blowing' low alarms experts

#73

Post by FrustratedMonky »

RandomLensman wrote: post #68
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism could work, if the framework was setup to allocate the environmental impact to the company using that resource. A 'credit' system worked to stop NOX and Acid Rain, no reason it couldn't be used to reduce CO2. Have to separate "Capitalism" the concept, from the "I'm changing the rules just for me to profit". "Capitalism" can work well with regulations. The people that are against regulations are not "pro-Ca…

Don't know about everywhere, but in Europe acid rain got stopped by direct regulation, not a credit framework.

Both can work.

My understanding is that in US, they used Emissions Credits, and this allowed a 'market' for those credits. This was more palatable to the segment of the country that are against regulations of any kind. But once there is a market, then it is ok.

There are some good points to an emissions market, it does allow accountants and corporations to determine a 'cost' that can be used in budgeting, and they can then us that as justification to purchase equipment. And it does allow the shifting of the 'cost' to the worst polluting plants. So in some ways markets are good, they steer the allocation of funds. The anarcho-capitalist types just need to understand that capitalism can be guided in this way, we know it works.

Re: Antarctic sea-ice at 'mind-blowing' low alarms experts

#74

Post by renegat0x0 »

NhanH wrote: post #71
nxm wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do I vote out Chinese and Indian policy makers where bulk of coal power plants are continuing to be built?

China is the #1 builder in all renewable (and nuclear too) by a significant margin You are going to need to also propose a solution beyond "stay poor" for the country.

Good intentions do not fix anything. China is still a problem.

Re: Antarctic sea-ice at 'mind-blowing' low alarms experts

#75

Post by PradeetPatel »

nxm wrote: post #62
wallhack wrote: post #33

Vote out any policy maker who impedes the response to climate change. This is not something we fix as individuals, with feel-good home solutions, recycling, or planting trees. Large industry is destroying our world, on purpose, because of greed. This only gets fixed through policy and regulation. Vote.

How do I vote out Chinese and Indian policy makers where bulk of coal power plants are continuing to be built?

By providing education and awareness, change can only come from within those countries. The citizens of China and India are probably on the same page as you.

Re: Antarctic sea-ice at 'mind-blowing' low alarms experts

#76

Post by LUmBULtERA »

renegat0x0 wrote: post #74
NhanH wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is the #1 builder in all renewable (and nuclear too) by a significant margin You are going to need to also propose a solution beyond "stay poor" for the country.

Good intentions do not fix anything. China is still a problem.

Building the most renewable energy is not a "good intention"... they're literally doing it. I'm not saying coal emissions are not a problem.

Re: Antarctic sea-ice at 'mind-blowing' low alarms experts

#77

Post by penteract »

weinzierl wrote: post #43

If you want to show a trend, give us a diagram that shows a trend. A scatter plot with a trend line would be a start, maybe. One can equally interpret the diagram from the article as showing a fairly constant level - somewhat varying within a limited range - with 2023 being an outlier. All it tells about is the variance and without at least more year labels there is no way to read anything about the trend from it. [I…

From the article:

> Until 2016 Antarctica's winter sea-ice had actually been growing in size.

>"There is a chance that it's a really freak expression of natural variability," [Dr Mallet] says

There isn't an obvious trend. I'm pleased that they aren't trying to hide this and that the article is clear that we don't know everything about Antarctica (I'd imagine it's very hard to get data for annual sea ice maxima before we started measuring them). This isn't supposed to single-handedly convince anyone that climate change is happening, but show a piece of evidence that extreme weather events are becoming more frequent.

Re: Antarctic sea-ice at 'mind-blowing' low alarms experts

#78

Post by frumiousirc »

weinzierl wrote: post #43

If you want to show a trend, give us a diagram that shows a trend. A scatter plot with a trend line would be a start, maybe. One can equally interpret the diagram from the article as showing a fairly constant level - somewhat varying within a limited range - with 2023 being an outlier. All it tells about is the variance and without at least more year labels there is no way to read anything about the trend from it. [I…

> trend

You can play with the data a bit here:

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/charctic-interactive-sea-i...

Be sure to click the Antarctic button. Arctic (the default) shows 2012 as the lowest record.

For Antarctica, last year was the previous minimum and was 2-sigma from the mean. Additional iso-sigma curves are not shown but I'd guess this year is at least one more sigma off the mean. I progressively activate past years and do not spot an obvious trend. So, last two years have deviated significantly with this year deviating yet more so.

On the other hand, given the number of measurements, we would expect about two measurements to be outside of 2-sigma. If we do not attribute anything to 2022 and 2023 being correlated, then this is just a fluctuation.

On the gripping hand, 2022 and 2023 may be the first two points of an explosive trend.

Re: Antarctic sea-ice at 'mind-blowing' low alarms experts

#79

Post by bryanlarsen »

unpopular42 wrote: post #48
wallhack wrote: post #33

Vote out any policy maker who impedes the response to climate change. This is not something we fix as individuals, with feel-good home solutions, recycling, or planting trees. Large industry is destroying our world, on purpose, because of greed. This only gets fixed through policy and regulation. Vote.

[flagged]

Are you a Chinese troll? If not, you're doing a great job of advocating for China.

At this point it's inevitable that solar power and EV's are going to win. They don't need any subsidies to win. But without the subsidies China will take the entire market and we'll be much more dependent on China in the future than we are on Saudi Arabia now.

Re: Antarctic sea-ice at 'mind-blowing' low alarms experts

#80

Post by wk_end »

Rnonymous wrote: post #55
unpopular42 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Could you elaborate on your world view or are you just trolling? Progress and capitalism optimize for value or $, and have no attention for the environmental cost as long as those are not put into regulations. You don't agree with that?

Given the contents of their bio, I suspect they’re trolling.
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