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Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

newsroom.toyota.eu

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Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#71

Post by acdha »

_hypx wrote: post #70
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were supposed to have solid state battery cars and vehicles for the Tokyo Olympics. It was obvious that wasn't going to happen and it didn't. Toyota has been completely asleep at the switch for EVs which is baffling since they pioneered the hybrid electric vehicle. What's really strange is after having such a huge lead and hybrid electric vehicle, they have really crawled behind other manufacturers and producing…

It takes zero effort to make an EV. They are incredibly simple vehicles. People really need to let go of their EV fanboyism (and likely that includes Tesla fanboyism). In reality, if EVs were the future, Toyota would start making vast numbers of them in just a few years. The real issue is that BEVs are not cost effective right now, and show no sign of that happening anytime soon. Until then, PHEVs and hybrids make a…

> The real issue is that BEVs are not cost effective right now, and show no sign of that happening anytime soon.

That must come as quite a surprise to all of the people who’ve already found them to be cost effective. Did you mean something like “gargantuan e-SUVs and trucks”?

Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#72

Post by seanmcdirmid »

willmadden wrote: post #23
zactato wrote: post #12

I'm surprised their battery technology isn't just a tank of hydrogen that's shaped like a normal EV battery.

It would have terrible range with the same footprint. Hydrogen has great energy density by mass but terrible energy density by volume. The tank needs to be huge (but it would be light).

Don’t they heavily compress the hydrogen with special tanks and compressors? Making it really cold, for example, makes it easier to compress.

Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#73

Post by KennyBlanken »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #20
itsoktocry wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 5sec 0-60. When did this become a metric that mattered to any normal person? Do you even know the 0-60 of your car? Do you realize how quick 5 second is to 60mph? Most sports cars of a generation ago couldn't touch that. Why do you feel it needs to be faster? It's plain dangerous to inexperienced drivers.

> Why do you feel it needs to be faster? Because there's nothing I hate more than a car that doesn't respond when I try to accelerate.

The amount of torque you get and how fast you get it is what you care about then, not 0-60 times.

They're not really related. There are cars with good 0-60 times that have terrible fast-secondary/highway acceleration; cars with big turbos, for example, and overly aggressive throttle-input smoothing (for mileage.)

Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#74

Post by _hypx »

acdha wrote: post #71
_hypx wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes zero effort to make an EV. They are incredibly simple vehicles. People really need to let go of their EV fanboyism (and likely that includes Tesla fanboyism). In reality, if EVs were the future, Toyota would start making vast numbers of them in just a few years. The real issue is that BEVs are not cost effective right now, and show no sign of that happening anytime soon. Until then, PHEVs and hybrids make a…

> The real issue is that BEVs are not cost effective right now, and show no sign of that happening anytime soon. That must come as quite a surprise to all of the people who’ve already found them to be cost effective. Did you mean something like “gargantuan e-SUVs and trucks”?

That either involve subsidies or significant sacrifices. The problem is that right now, a hybrid cost around $25k. It takes something like a decade of driving before you can reach cost parity, and that is assuming you have access to cheap electricity. e-SUVs and trucks are even more non-competitive.

Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#75

Post by tzs »

PaulKeeble wrote: post #61
eulgro wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a 150 kWh battery, 10 minute charge to go from 10% to 80% SoC means charging at 600 kW or so. It would be pretty insane.

Not feasible on even 240 Volt AC at all, would have to be high voltage all the way to the charger as the cabling is unworkable. Its completely impractical otherwise and its going to require big changes to the grid.

Presumably that would be at charging stations, not at home. Those would be located in commercial areas where they could get the kind of power feed that medium to large buildings get, which is typically 3 phase 13800 V, and can be thousands of kW.

Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#76

Post by acdha »

_hypx wrote: post #74
acdha wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real issue is that BEVs are not cost effective right now, and show no sign of that happening anytime soon. That must come as quite a surprise to all of the people who’ve already found them to be cost effective. Did you mean something like “gargantuan e-SUVs and trucks”?

That either involve subsidies or significant sacrifices. The problem is that right now, a hybrid cost around $25k. It takes something like a decade of driving before you can reach cost parity, and that is assuming you have access to cheap electricity. e-SUVs and trucks are even more non-competitive.

This very much depends on how low your gas prices are subsidized to, and as you admitted the lower maintenance costs are quite helpful. One catalytic concert theft will add a couple of years to that schedule, too.

Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#77

Post by two_handfuls »

_hypx wrote: post #67
PaulKeeble wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toyota has absolutely nothing for the EV age having bet the house on hydrogen and failing that just ICE. Now they are scrambling and making promises on research when they have nothing remotely to suggest they can do what they are promising, not even a prototype.

It takes no effort to make an EV. They are the simplest type of car imaginable. They even pre-date ICE cars.

True. But it takes a lot of effort to make a competitive EV.

The competition has optimized air and rolling resistance, battery chemistry, and battery cooling/management software.

Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#78

Post by acdha »

Alupis wrote: post #37
fragmede wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen is a gas, which expands or compresses to fill all available space, so its density varies. People really need to check their understanding of physics here.

I would assume, but perhaps be wrong, that it would be liquid Hydrogen pumped into a vehicle's tank, and much like a tank of propane, the liquid expands back into a gas as pressure decreases (due to consumption). Hydrogen vehicles have the advantage of being refillable in minutes, much like petrol based vehicles - yet the only byproduct is water vapor, making them completely environmentally friendly. Hydrogen is also…

There are a few posters here who’ve reported first hand experience. It definitely sounds like a chicken-and-egg problem compounded by the impracticality of storing and pressurizing hydrogen - every part of the process costs a lot more than gasoline:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28818305

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34485260

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35680544

Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#79

Post by nebula8804 »

_hypx wrote: post #70
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were supposed to have solid state battery cars and vehicles for the Tokyo Olympics. It was obvious that wasn't going to happen and it didn't. Toyota has been completely asleep at the switch for EVs which is baffling since they pioneered the hybrid electric vehicle. What's really strange is after having such a huge lead and hybrid electric vehicle, they have really crawled behind other manufacturers and producing…

It takes zero effort to make an EV. They are incredibly simple vehicles. People really need to let go of their EV fanboyism (and likely that includes Tesla fanboyism). In reality, if EVs were the future, Toyota would start making vast numbers of them in just a few years. The real issue is that BEVs are not cost effective right now, and show no sign of that happening anytime soon. Until then, PHEVs and hybrids make a…

It might take zero effort to make an EV but it must take some more effort than zero to make a good reliable EV. I agree that it seems like Toyota is definitely putting in zero effort into their EV offerings. The bz4x rollout has been a mess. Its such a shame as my previous ICE car is really on its last legs and i'm bummed at the current offerings.

Im looking at some small crossover so far I found tons of used bz4x marked as lemon/deal buybacks, Hyundai kona has a multitude of issues and also has buybacks. Mustang Mach-E seems the best deal and Tesla is hit/miss.

btw are you the hypx from the /r/Realtesla Tesla skeptics subreddit?

Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#80

Post by _hypx »

acdha wrote: post #76
_hypx wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That either involve subsidies or significant sacrifices. The problem is that right now, a hybrid cost around $25k. It takes something like a decade of driving before you can reach cost parity, and that is assuming you have access to cheap electricity. e-SUVs and trucks are even more non-competitive.

This very much depends on how low your gas prices are subsidized to, and as you admitted the lower maintenance costs are quite helpful. One catalytic concert theft will add a couple of years to that schedule, too.

Gas is usually heavily taxed. Maintenance costs are absurdly exaggerated (especially when compared to the long-term cost of battery replacement) and catalytic convertor theft is covered by insurance.
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