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Do you struggle to find ethical work?

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Re: Do you struggle to find ethical work?

#71

Post by karmakaze »

I've gone through a similar thought process when deciding what to do (next). At the time I was in retail Forex which amounts to gambling. After a while I accepted/reframed it as entertainment with a false sense of investment which was tolerable. I didn't want to work in fintech (too derivative/decoupled) nor adtech.

What I found was working at smaller companies/startups that solve specific problems/areas, e.g. photography. Now I'm at an e/comerce platform which does have a percentage of fast fashion but on the whole promotes trade which connects economies and individual independence which is net plus.

Re: Do you struggle to find ethical work?

#72

Post by thunky »

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #59
dusted wrote: post #7

Reminder: This is my personal opinion, not an attempt to convince you of anything else. While my opinion might be unpopular, I don't believe it to be without any contributing value to the discussion, so please keep that in mind if you decide to read it (and before downvoting me for providing my opinion). I don't really, if I'm not doing it, someone else will do it, so it will be done anyway. My belief is in bettering…

> I don't really, if I'm not doing it, someone else will do it, so it will be done anyway. That is flawed logic though. If enough people refuse to do certain types of work, it will make it harder/more expensive to do that work, which could mean it doesn't get done at all. Simple supply and demand! Principles matter both in theory and in practice. Just because someone else is OK with doing bad stuff doesn't mean it's…

> That is flawed logic though. If enough people refuse to do certain types of work,

Sure that would solve it, but the issue is that this will never happen.

People will never stop doing objectionable things for money.

You won't even be able to get enough people to agree that there is a problem that needs solving.

Re: Do you struggle to find ethical work?

#73

Post by FartyMcFarter »

thunky wrote: post #72
FartyMcFarter wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't really, if I'm not doing it, someone else will do it, so it will be done anyway. That is flawed logic though. If enough people refuse to do certain types of work, it will make it harder/more expensive to do that work, which could mean it doesn't get done at all. Simple supply and demand! Principles matter both in theory and in practice. Just because someone else is OK with doing bad stuff doesn't mean it's…

> That is flawed logic though. If enough people refuse to do certain types of work, Sure that would solve it, but the issue is that this will never happen. People will never stop doing objectionable things for money. You won't even be able to get enough people to agree that there is a problem that needs solving.

> Sure that would solve it, but the issue is that this will never happen.

Not sure what you mean by that. Some bad things will keep happening, but:

a) that doesn't excuse working on bad things.

b) not all bad things will get worked on.

If you always use other people as an excuse to do bad things that you don't believe in, you really need to reevaluate your thought process.

Re: Do you struggle to find ethical work?

#74

Post by eimrine »

Programming except of FOSS is unethical as well, especially Java/C#. Spying and dark patterns seems much worse than miltech and oil&gas for me because I need gas for heating my house and I need weapons for protecting my country.

Re: Do you struggle to find ethical work?

#75

Post by friend_and_foe »

Yup, sure do. That's why I don't work in SV.

I personally would rather work for an energy or finance company (no retail consumer products) than for an SV company. I don't really find energy production or financial tools unethical, what I find unethical is addicting people to their phones for ad revenue, or building companies just to sell to someone who's going to do that anyway. Or trying to find out how people like to fuck so that they can be shilled a different brand of dog food or whatever.

I don't know what to tell you. In the professional world we are all assumed to be willing to do whatever for a paycheck as long as it's legal. A lot of jobs are going to try to get you to do shit that doesn't align with your values. The best I can come up with is work on mundane stuff like information processing tools or something, where you won't be expected to actually build unethical stuff. You could make games, but you'll probably be pressured to build slot machine level addictive pay to play mini games for kids. Building some back end software that performs a computation on a data feed for a financial services firm that helps increase 401k valuations over time doesn't really sound that unethical in comparison.

Re: Do you struggle to find ethical work?

#76

Post by thunky »

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #73
thunky wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is flawed logic though. If enough people refuse to do certain types of work, Sure that would solve it, but the issue is that this will never happen. People will never stop doing objectionable things for money. You won't even be able to get enough people to agree that there is a problem that needs solving.

> Sure that would solve it, but the issue is that this will never happen. Not sure what you mean by that. Some bad things will keep happening, but: a) that doesn't excuse working on bad things. b) not all bad things will get worked on. If you always use other people as an excuse to do bad things that you don't believe in, you really need to reevaluate your thought process.

> a) that doesn't excuse working on bad things.

Yes, as an individual you can (and should) choose to not do bad things. But the original point being made was that this individual choice is not going to make any difference as long as someone else comes along behind you to do it.

And my point is that it's unrealistic to think that people are collectively going to stop doing "bad" things for money. We can't even expect to agree on what "bad" is, let alone expect people to throw their career in the toilet for it.

Should everyone working at Nike quit because of their objectionble practices? You may believe so. All I'm saying is that it's just not going to happen.

Re: Do you struggle to find ethical work?

#77

Post by friend_and_foe »

dusted wrote: post #7

Reminder: This is my personal opinion, not an attempt to convince you of anything else. While my opinion might be unpopular, I don't believe it to be without any contributing value to the discussion, so please keep that in mind if you decide to read it (and before downvoting me for providing my opinion). I don't really, if I'm not doing it, someone else will do it, so it will be done anyway. My belief is in bettering…

You create the world you live in whether you want to do it or not. Delegating that to someone on TV is an illusion. Being a person who will do whatever for a paycheck makes you part of the problem. Voting and calling it all good is about as much of an excuse as confessing on Sunday. Your vote has no measurable impact either, may as well stop doing that also and just accept who you are, you're a mercenary who doesn't care about your impact on the world.

Re: Do you struggle to find ethical work?

#78

Post by Apreche »

Absolutely yes. When I’m looking for jobs, or recruiters come looking for me, well over 90% of the opportunities I have to turn away right from the start because I’m morally opposed to the company.

Just a small sample of the thing I’m morally opposed to, finance, crypto, advertising, defense, anything that severely contributes to global warming (automotive, fossil fuels), gambling, for-profit medicine, anything that’s profiting from invading people’s privacy.

Somehow I’ve still managed to find jobs I find acceptable, but I also could have, and could be, making a lot more money if I didn’t have such a restriction.

I guess if I was in dire straits, I would take a job at an immoral place just to survive, but I’d be constantly looking to get out as soon as I got in.

Re: Do you struggle to find ethical work?

#79

Post by FartyMcFarter »

thunky wrote: post #76
FartyMcFarter wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure that would solve it, but the issue is that this will never happen. Not sure what you mean by that. Some bad things will keep happening, but: a) that doesn't excuse working on bad things. b) not all bad things will get worked on. If you always use other people as an excuse to do bad things that you don't believe in, you really need to reevaluate your thought process.

> a) that doesn't excuse working on bad things. Yes, as an individual you can (and should) choose to not do bad things. But the original point being made was that this individual choice is not going to make any difference as long as someone else comes along behind you to do it. And my point is that it's unrealistic to think that people are collectively going to stop doing "bad" things for money. We can't even expect…

> But the original point being made was that this individual choice is not going to make any difference as long as someone else comes along behind you to do it.

I know. But the original point is wrong or at least it doesn't tell the whole story.

That is, not all bad things will get done, and some bad things will get harder/more expensive to do if lots of people refuse to do it. Seeing it as a binary thing is overly reductive and may lead people down the path they disagree with.

Re: Do you struggle to find ethical work?

#80

Post by LightHugger »

dusted wrote: post #7

Reminder: This is my personal opinion, not an attempt to convince you of anything else. While my opinion might be unpopular, I don't believe it to be without any contributing value to the discussion, so please keep that in mind if you decide to read it (and before downvoting me for providing my opinion). I don't really, if I'm not doing it, someone else will do it, so it will be done anyway. My belief is in bettering…

The "if I'm not doing it, someone else will do it, so it will be done anyway." Is a justification i've seen used by columbian kidnapper gangs so it seems to be the ultimate coping mechanism and is very effective regardless of whether you're right or wrong on a rational level.

Personal survival does come first. And removing oneself from a sense of responsibility via "someone else will do it" can be effective. But it's typically not actually true, tbh.

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