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When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

miles.land

71–80 of 350 posts

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Writing a demand letter that leans in favor of your client's interests is not only okay, it is the standard course of action for a civil dispute. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/demand_letter

Perhaps they shouldn't. If we lived in a world where lawyers were more cautions about what they attached there name to out of concern for losing their license we would probably be better off. Less bullying by corporations with lots of money etc. No problems with demand letters for legitimate issues that are well supported by evidence though.

The role of a lawyer is to make persuasive arguments in their clients favor, and those arguments are supported by a wide spectrum in strength of evidence and legal opinion.

Completely baseless stuff can get lawyers disbarred, but many things are shades of gray. The way the CFAA is written, just about any security research on someone else's machine that doesn't include "we got permission in advance" often falls into this gray area.

The fact that the DOJ doesn't prosecute good-faith security research is DOJ policy, not actual law. The law as-written doesn't have a good-faith exemption.

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#72

A private individual or company cannot file criminal/felony charges. Those are filed by a County Prosecutor, District Attorney, State Attorney, etc after being convinced of probable cause. They could threaten to report you to the police or such authorities, but they would have to turn over their evidence to them and to you and open all their relevant records to you via discovery. > Get a lawyer Yes, if they're seriou…

Isn't threatening to report someone to the authorities if you don't do something extortion?

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#73

I don't understand why in both contracts and legal communication (particularly threatening one), there is little to no consequence for the writing party to get things right. I've seen examples of an employee contract, with things like "if any piece of this contract is invalid it doesn't invalidate the rest of the contract". The employer is basically trying to enforce their rules (reasonable), but they have no negativ…

There is obviously such a thing as going too far, but it's kind of hard to draw a clear line. In a good faith context, laws and precedents can change quickly, sometimes based on the whim of a judge, and there are many areas of law where there is no clear precedent or where guidance is fuzzy. In those cases, it's important to have severability so that entire contracts don't have to be renegotiated because one small clause didn't hold up in court.

Imagine an employment contract that contains a non-compete clause (ignore, for a moment, your personal beliefs about non-compete clauses). The company may have a single employment contract that they use everywhere, and so in states where non-competes are illegal, the severability clause allows them to avoid having separate contracts for each jurisdiction. And now suppose that a state that once allowed non-competes passes a law banning them: should every employment contract with a non-compete clause suddenly become null and void? Of course not. That's what severability is for.

In the case in the OP, it's hard to say what the context is of the threat, but I imagine something along the lines of, "Unauthorized access to our computer network is a federal crime under statute XYZ punishable by up to 20 years in prison." Scary as hell to a layperson, but it's not strictly speaking untrue, even if most lawyers would roll their eyes and say that they're full of shit. Sure, it's misleading, and a bad actor could easily take it too far, but it's hard to know exactly where to draw the line if lawyers couch a threat in enough qualifiers.

At the end of the day, documents like this are written by lawyers in legalese that's not designed for ordinary people. It's shitty that they threatened some college students with this, and whatever lawyer did write and send this letter on behalf of the company gave that company tremendously poor advice. I guess you could complain to the bar, but it would be very hard to make a compelling case in a situation like this.

(This is also one of the reasons why collective bargaining is so valuable. A union can afford legal representation to go toe to toe with the company's lawyers. Individual employees can't do that.)

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#74
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just pointing out the absurdity of it. I would much rather get punched in the face than serve 20 years in prison, but it is illegal to threaten the former, but perfectly fine to threaten the latter.

>I would much rather get punched in the face than serve 20 years in prison, but it is illegal to threaten the former, but perfectly fine to threaten the latter. How about you don't do the action that makes you punishable with 20 years in prison? On a more practical level, if someone is breaking into your house, should it be illegal to tell them to stop, on pain of you calling the police which presumably would cause t…

No, because it would be legitimate? Just like it is legitimate to use force to stop someone from hurting you...

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#75

I feel like this article reflects an overall positive change in the way disclosure is handled today. Back in the 90s this was the sort of thing every company did. Companies would threaten lawsuits, or disclosure in the first place seemed legally dubious. Discussions in forums / BBS's would be around if it was safe to disclose at all. Suggestions of anonymous email accounts and that sort of thing. Sure you still get s…

I wonder if this was the students' attempt to protect their future careers as much as anything—"keep quiet about this or else"—especially given the issues were quickly fixed. In that sense it differs from the classic 90s era retaliation. From the students' POV it was probably quite terrifying. I wouldn't discount intervention by wealthy parents either, but of course I know nothing of the situation or the people involved.

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#76

I don't understand why in both contracts and legal communication (particularly threatening one), there is little to no consequence for the writing party to get things right. I've seen examples of an employee contract, with things like "if any piece of this contract is invalid it doesn't invalidate the rest of the contract". The employer is basically trying to enforce their rules (reasonable), but they have no negativ…

That's not the language they use. It will be more like "your actions may violate (law ref) and if convicted, penalties may be up to 20 years in prison." And how do you keep people from saying that? It's basically a statement of fact. If you have a problem with this, then your issue is with Congress for writing such a vague law.

No, you are talking about criminal law. What OP is talking about is severability, which exists so that if a judge determines Clause X violates the law, they can still (attempt) to enforce the rest of the contract if X can be easily remedied. I.e. The contract says no lunch breaks but CalOSHA regulations say 30 minutes required, the contractor can't violate the contract in its' entirety, they just take the breaks and amend the contract if the employer pushes it.

I disagree with OP - a judge can always choose to invalidate a contract, regardless of severability. It is in there for the convenience of the parties, and I've not heard of it being used in bad faith.

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#77
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I would much rather get punched in the face than serve 20 years in prison, but it is illegal to threaten the former, but perfectly fine to threaten the latter. How about you don't do the action that makes you punishable with 20 years in prison? On a more practical level, if someone is breaking into your house, should it be illegal to tell them to stop, on pain of you calling the police which presumably would cause t…

No, because it would be legitimate? Just like it is legitimate to use force to stop someone from hurting you...

"It would be legitimate" is just an assertion. The entire debate is about what is legitimate and what is not. You're supposed to be saying why things are or are not legitimate, either legally or morally.

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#78

I don't understand why in both contracts and legal communication (particularly threatening one), there is little to no consequence for the writing party to get things right. I've seen examples of an employee contract, with things like "if any piece of this contract is invalid it doesn't invalidate the rest of the contract". The employer is basically trying to enforce their rules (reasonable), but they have no negativ…

> I've seen examples of an employee contract, with things like "if any piece of this contract is invalid it doesn't invalidate the rest of the contract".

This concept of severability exists in basically all contracts, and is generally limited to sections that are not fundamental to the nature of the agreement. (The extent of what qualifies as fundamental is, as you said, up to a court to interpret.)

In your specific example of an employee contract, severability actually protects you too, by ensuring all the other covenants of your agreement - especially the ones that protect you as the individual - will remain in force even if a sub section is invalidated. Otherwise, if the whole contract were invalidated, you'd be starting from nothing (and likely out of a job). Some protections are better than zero.

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#79
post #57

I'm not a lawyer, but I am professionally interested in this weird branch of the law, and it seems like EFF's staff attorney went a bit out on a limb here: * Fizz appears to be a client/server application (presumably a web app?) * The testing the researchers did was of software running on Fizz's servers * After identifying a vulnerability, the researchers created administrator accounts using the database activity the…

I think intent matters for actually securing an indictment and conviction, if for example they can prove that you exfiled their user data (this happened to Weev who noticed an ordinal ID in a URL and enumerated all possible URLs) they could actually get the feds to bust you. But you're right, if they're big enough they could try to come after your regardless at the risk of turning the security research community against them.

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#80
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps they shouldn't. If we lived in a world where lawyers were more cautions about what they attached there name to out of concern for losing their license we would probably be better off. Less bullying by corporations with lots of money etc. No problems with demand letters for legitimate issues that are well supported by evidence though.

>If we lived in a world where lawyers were more cautions about what they attached there name to out of concern for losing their license we would probably be better off. That's already the case. Lawyers can be disbarred for filing frivolous lawsuits.

I'm aware, and yet this letter was written and signed by a lawyer who probably knew better and will likely face no consequences.
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