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Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

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Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#71

Post by brianwawok »

yellow_lead wrote: post #68
simlevesque wrote: post #65

What I get from this is: make your own rules

Especially in emergencies - information is potentially bad, and going with the crowd can leave you dead. That said, preparation is key.

I think this is a tragedy of the commons type case.

In general and for the society at large, what you want is order. Listen to authorities, do what they say. If everyone is in full panic mode, its very likely even more people die. By following directions and maintaining order, you increase the odds that more people survive.

For you personally? Go in full panic mode, do whatever you have to, to live. At the end of the day, no one is getting a ticket for running a police barricade. But some people that listened are literally dead.

Basically - I want everyone else to be calm and follow directions, and I want to push my way to the front and save myself.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#72

Post by SoftTalker »

> Hawaiian Electric had no procedure in place for turning off the grid

I find this hard to believe. Substations have remote control. Even if they are so old that they do not, send out a lineman crew and open the cutouts. You have to be able to do this to do maintenance and repair, it's not believable that they cannot "turn off" power in an emergency.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#73

Post by Maultasche »

gorwell wrote: post #61

> More than 100 deaths have been confirmed, and roughly 1,000 people remain unaccounted for. It's been two weeks now. Does this mean that roughly 1,000 people died?

Sometimes, it can be a case where someone is still alive, but hasn't yet communicated with the person that reported them missing for whatever reason. After two weeks, however, I imagine that most of the missing will never reappear.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#74

Post by Pxtl »

> The workers were motioning for everyone to turn back toward Lahaina.

They literally sent people to die, under the color of authority as working under county government.

Will anybody face accountability?

edit: I'm rate-limited but to provide an a historical analog:

In 1911 the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire killed over a hundred young women working in the garment industry. The building's doors were locked by the owners of the factory to reduce theft.

The owners were found liable for the deaths of their employees, but the damages were a pittance.

I have trouble seeing "deliberately blocking the means of egress with reckless disregard for its need in an emergency evacuation for the sake of your own convenience" as profoundly different here.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#75

Post by seafoam »

yellow_lead wrote: post #68
simlevesque wrote: post #65

What I get from this is: make your own rules

Especially in emergencies - information is potentially bad, and going with the crowd can leave you dead. That said, preparation is key.

Yes, reading this article reminded me of Steward Brand, who drives around with earthquake tools in the trunk of his car.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#76

Post by throwway120385 »

SoftTalker wrote: post #72

> Hawaiian Electric had no procedure in place for turning off the grid I find this hard to believe. Substations have remote control. Even if they are so old that they do not, send out a lineman crew and open the cutouts. You have to be able to do this to do maintenance and repair, it's not believable that they cannot "turn off" power in an emergency.

What they probably meant is "nobody gave any consideration to the implications of a red flag warning on the propensity for utility poles to fall and cause catestrophic fires."

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#77

Post by massysett »

Pxtl wrote: post #74

> The workers were motioning for everyone to turn back toward Lahaina. They literally sent people to die, under the color of authority as working under county government. Will anybody face accountability? edit: I'm rate-limited but to provide an a historical analog: In 1911 the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire killed over a hundred young women working in the garment industry. The building's doors were locked by the o…

Accountability for what - doing their jobs in good faith with the best information they had?

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#78

Post by throwway120385 »

bottlepalm wrote: post #69

Wow, within an hour that fire moved from the top of the hill to the bottom. Can't imagine. A literal blast furnace with those strong winds.

If it came up over the Lahaina Pali, I believe that. I've hiked it and the grasses are bone dry and the wind is constant and strong.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#79

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

simlevesque wrote: post #65

What I get from this is: make your own rules

I find it weird that the title of the article focuses on them so much, but it seems like the barricades there were due to the downed electrical wire or to keep people away from other areas that were on fire. Timed differently driving around the barricade one could have ended up in a worse situation than they already were.

Hindsight is of little value to those who were making decisions in the moment, but really, "make your own rules during an emergency" seems like it isn't guaranteed to be effective. You're just as likely to be adding to the problem as anything.

Re: Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires

#80

Post by s1artibartfast »

Karellen wrote: post #27
phpisthebest wrote: post #9

Survival is almost always increased by ignoring government officials, I dont know why we have to keep relearning this lesson over and over again but some people still follow government like they have some divine knowledge Government works best which is subservient to the people, the second it becomes something else bad things will happen

Good luck ignoring the next government-issued evacuation order or shelter-in-place order in your region then.

The point is that it's context-specific.

Only you have the personal context.

I know several people that have ignored fire evacuation orders and saved their homes instead. No fire department is going to tell people to fight the fire because they don't know people's individual situations.

Shelter and place orders are another funny one. I have a lot of fond memories ignoring shelter in place orders hiking and camping in the wilderness during covid. It probably reduced my risk versus Sheltering at home. Blanket orders were one size fits all, made to address the person that is going to parties and bars.

The government is never looking out for your individual interests. It only cares about the average, and you can be the person that dies as collateral damage from an order that still has a good average outcome

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