Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Slavery's last stronghold

cnn.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 107 posts

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#71

Post by tomkin »

lambersley wrote: post #69
tomkin wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe religion in general does aid in providing some sense of moral compass. Here's the problem I have with that. Let's say that I am a member of the SS and being a member provides me with a *moral compass*. OK, wait...those are the *wrong* morals. Right. The attack shouldn't be against people's belief or spirituality – but of the idea that you shouldn't borrow ideas without evaluation or due diligence. > Relig…

> I believe religion in general does aid in providing some sense of moral compass. Moral compass in its simplest form. 'Thou shall not murder' - I'm not sure there is an argument in terms of "right v wrong" > crucial in the abolishment Perhaps a Western view, but looking at the countries who lead the charge, they were strongly influenced by 'the church' > Sources Thank you. I only had a few minutes to quickly skim th…

In a comment above, I mentioned the nature of these references at being weak at best. There is an inherit problem with sourcing this kind of data and/or being the "front man" for it for obvious reasons.

The very nature of having a large group of people thinking the same way, executing their lives in a way pre-determined is a very bad thing. You can label it however you wish. An atheist is basically someone who has identified what they are not. When you talk about "pretty non-religious", you're talking about unlabelled or not completely adherent atheism. That's still a great thing. Nothing wrong with believing in some thing as long as someone else didn't tell you to.

The argument "It's good that a large group of people believe in a single ideology and adhere their life to it" will never have wings among intellectuals. Now, if you take that argument and apply it, you won't go far down the road when you'll invariably have to talk about religion. Do you excuse it? Or accept that it is one of those groups?

Excusing it is callous and hypocritical.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#72

Post by lambersley »

tomkin wrote: post #71
lambersley wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe religion in general does aid in providing some sense of moral compass. Moral compass in its simplest form. 'Thou shall not murder' - I'm not sure there is an argument in terms of "right v wrong" > crucial in the abolishment Perhaps a Western view, but looking at the countries who lead the charge, they were strongly influenced by 'the church' > Sources Thank you. I only had a few minutes to quickly skim th…

In a comment above, I mentioned the nature of these references at being weak at best. There is an inherit problem with sourcing this kind of data and/or being the "front man" for it for obvious reasons. The very nature of having a large group of people thinking the same way, executing their lives in a way pre-determined is a very bad thing. You can label it however you wish. An atheist is basically someone who has id…

No disagreement here. Religion inherently forces an idea on a person. However, when a person determines the course of their life, which happens to align to a particular religion, it must be accepted whether by intellectual or not.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#73

Post by Yoms »

tomkin wrote: post #50

This problem, like many problems in the world are often examined only a few layers deep. The conclusions are always the same: Poverty/Slavery are the consequence of corruption, or an evil dictator of some kind. While it is true that dictatorship, blind eyes and cruelty are the embodiment of these issues, religion is the sword that is wielded. Each year the west makes more progress in what I would consider the eventua…

This report shows us a terribly broken culture. It may have had foundations in religion, but that was so long ago that even if we could magically wipe away all trace of religion or God from the minds of every Mauritanian, the problem would continue. The only way to fix broken cultural aspects is through education, which is what the abolitionists in this report seem to be doing. Maybe it shows my ignorance, but if not for this report I would have never known about this problem, now that I do, I'd love to find ways to help.

Pinning the blame for Mauritania's slavery problem on "religion" takes the eye off the ball, which is fixing the problems there. It also seems like creating a convenient straw man for atheism, which if the constant preaching of is any indication, seems to be turning into quite the religion...

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#74

Post by ars »

Porter_423 wrote: post #51

“I only had my tears to console me,” how pathetic is this?Actually slavery has become a serious problem for the Africa.It should be just removed from Africa at any cost.

> at any cost

At any cost? Are you sure? What if the cost is the life of all the slaves? Do you know what happens to people with no life skills at all that are suddenly thrown into the world to take care of themself?

They should be helped, but not at any cost.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#75

Post by tomkin »

tomkin wrote: post #50

This problem, like many problems in the world are often examined only a few layers deep. The conclusions are always the same: Poverty/Slavery are the consequence of corruption, or an evil dictator of some kind. While it is true that dictatorship, blind eyes and cruelty are the embodiment of these issues, religion is the sword that is wielded. Each year the west makes more progress in what I would consider the eventua…

Noticing some of my comments are being down-voted. No problem with opposing opinion or criticism, but when there is a void of space under my comment where your rebuttal should be and my comment was down-voted, I have to think that you just don't like what I am saying.

As I see it, if I've said something inflammatory or if I refuse to debate further beyond talking points, I should accept the fate of the down-vote. I've responded to and debated my points, without name calling, or other negative behaviour.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#76

Post by tomkin »

Yoms wrote: post #73
tomkin wrote: post #50

This problem, like many problems in the world are often examined only a few layers deep. The conclusions are always the same: Poverty/Slavery are the consequence of corruption, or an evil dictator of some kind. While it is true that dictatorship, blind eyes and cruelty are the embodiment of these issues, religion is the sword that is wielded. Each year the west makes more progress in what I would consider the eventua…

This report shows us a terribly broken culture. It may have had foundations in religion, but that was so long ago that even if we could magically wipe away all trace of religion or God from the minds of every Mauritanian, the problem would continue. The only way to fix broken cultural aspects is through education, which is what the abolitionists in this report seem to be doing. Maybe it shows my ignorance, but if not…

> atheism, which if the constant preaching of is any indication, seems to be turning into quite the religion...

  I've actually noted this. The whole "Bless You" debate squares that point.
  My point is more about critical thinking and how religion takes that away 
  from people. Is anyone in argument that it is a bad thing for large groups
  of people to think the same way without due diligence? Pretty sure most
  people see large groups thinking as one as a bad thing. You can call it atheism, 
  or what have you, but essentially we're talking about freedom of critical 
  thinking vs. freedom of religion. I don't care for religion, or people
  thinking in large groups as one, so I lean towards people's right to think
  critically.
> Pinning the blame for Mauritania's slavery problem on "religion" takes the eye off the ball

  Let's ask: Why is there slavery in Mauritania? What would make people 
  okay with their own enslavement? No education about what slavery is? 
  Sure. Let's say it's to do with education. Now, who's putting a stop 
  to education? Whoops. Here's to taking the eye off the ball, esoteric
  style. I tire of hearing how people will solve the world's ball of fire
  that is enslavement, brutality, ignorance by throwing a pail of water
  over it when the real problem is the factory making the lighter fluid.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#77

Post by tomkin »

lambersley wrote: post #72
tomkin wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a comment above, I mentioned the nature of these references at being weak at best. There is an inherit problem with sourcing this kind of data and/or being the "front man" for it for obvious reasons. The very nature of having a large group of people thinking the same way, executing their lives in a way pre-determined is a very bad thing. You can label it however you wish. An atheist is basically someone who has id…

No disagreement here. Religion inherently forces an idea on a person. However, when a person determines the course of their life, which happens to align to a particular religion, it must be accepted whether by intellectual or not.

> Religion inherently forces an idea on a person

The problem with this conversation is that it dips in and out of respect of ones beliefs – which is a tricky platform to walk. If I say "No, people should throw away religious ideology", I will be called all sorts of names. If I say "I think X people should be enslaved", I will also be called all sorts of names.

Why is this true? Because with religion, there are several degrees of information you must process to get to a point where you see the correlation of religion and enslavement. Saying "X people should be enslaved" is only 1 degree. Why is it okay to tolerate something because it is more for our brain to evaluate? Why does it matter how many steps there are to the same result, or other negative result? It doesn't matter. If the end point meets slavery, brutality or death it is as/more severe than the act itself.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#78

Post by paulhauggis »

tomkin wrote: post #50

This problem, like many problems in the world are often examined only a few layers deep. The conclusions are always the same: Poverty/Slavery are the consequence of corruption, or an evil dictator of some kind. While it is true that dictatorship, blind eyes and cruelty are the embodiment of these issues, religion is the sword that is wielded. Each year the west makes more progress in what I would consider the eventua…

"Religion on our side of the world looks rosy. If you look away from the west, you will see how religion enslaves and dilutes entire populations into believing this is what god wants."

I think religion is ingrained in humans. If all religions were gone today, people would would still be getting religious over something.

Open source has turned religious in the development community. So has development languages (PHP/Ruby) or editors (VI/Emacs). The only difference is we aren't killing each other over it.

Even Global warming has gotten religious.

The problems aren't even about the religion itself. It's about a group or person gaining power over others and abusing that power. The right-wing of America uses that as a power-base to swing votes. On the other side, the left uses things like the unions to do the same thing.

Christianity, in my mind, is a guide on how to be a good human being. Many people have bastardized this and use it to force their views onto other people through fear, which is wrong.

"f we want to really solve the world's problems, we must finally stamp out the tools used to cause pain for millions, and if we look to the roots, the catalyst is most obvious."

Which means taking away the right to be religious. I don't agree with you, sorry.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#79

Post by tomkin »

paulhauggis wrote: post #78
tomkin wrote: post #50

This problem, like many problems in the world are often examined only a few layers deep. The conclusions are always the same: Poverty/Slavery are the consequence of corruption, or an evil dictator of some kind. While it is true that dictatorship, blind eyes and cruelty are the embodiment of these issues, religion is the sword that is wielded. Each year the west makes more progress in what I would consider the eventua…

"Religion on our side of the world looks rosy. If you look away from the west, you will see how religion enslaves and dilutes entire populations into believing this is what god wants." I think religion is ingrained in humans. If all religions were gone today, people would would still be getting religious over something. Open source has turned religious in the development community. So has development languages (PHP/R…

> I think religion is ingrained in humans. If all religions were gone today, people would would still be getting religious over something.

Diluting religion into a fan club of sorts is a way to get around why actual religion is bad. You can't find a path of brutality and enslavement to Ruby enthusiasts. It's not the same thing and I think that should be pretty obvious.

> Many people have bastardized this and use it to force their views onto other people through fear, which is wrong.

Because we're allowed to interpret religion. In the west, talking snakes and Noah's Arc are ridiculous notions, so we can conveniently forget about that stuff. In other countries, beheading someone for having a Facebook photo that doesn't adhere to the religious doctrine isn't just allowed - it's reinforced by Sharia Law, which in some countries is the actual law. Human mutilation is even possible in the US by way of circumcision – the act of cutting parts of a person's body without their permission. But that's okay. As long as it's - what? What can I possibly put here that makes mutilation okay? I can't.

As a person who sees positive in religion, you have a few tools in your belt to banter with. But none of those tools will ever be able to denounce the fact that thinking in large groups without evaluation is bad.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#80

Post by ars »

tomkin wrote: post #75
tomkin wrote: post #50

This problem, like many problems in the world are often examined only a few layers deep. The conclusions are always the same: Poverty/Slavery are the consequence of corruption, or an evil dictator of some kind. While it is true that dictatorship, blind eyes and cruelty are the embodiment of these issues, religion is the sword that is wielded. Each year the west makes more progress in what I would consider the eventua…

Noticing some of my comments are being down-voted. No problem with opposing opinion or criticism, but when there is a void of space under my comment where your rebuttal should be and my comment was down-voted, I have to think that you just don't like what I am saying . As I see it, if I've said something inflammatory or if I refuse to debate further beyond talking points, I should accept the fate of the down-vote. I'…

Your comments are being downvoted because claiming religion is the cause of slavery and all of the worlds ills is so patently silly that people see no reason to refute you in words.

You did say the "sword that is wielded" so I guess you have some realization that it's not the cause, only the effect - but then the rest of your post (and your other ones) go on to try to claim that religion is the cause.

You also don't seem to realize that the moral code you live by (i.e. the things you find OK vs not OK) just by living where you do (things like corporal punishment for adults, debt slavery, age of consent, capital punishment for economic crimes) is basically arbitrary (different countries feel differently about these things without any religious thought getting involved) and to a million mile observer is indistinguishable from a religion.

So calling out religion for giving people a template (as you call it) demonstrates a lack of understanding of both religion and your own thinking - I bet you have strong opinions on all those things I mentioned, and you don't realize your opinion is basically a religious one taught to you as a child.

Post reply on HN