In Sweden, cash is king no more • Hacker News Board

Re: In Sweden, cash is king no more

#71

Post by spurgu » Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 10:27 PM UTC

tjoff wrote: post #37

dfc wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent means pseudonymous. Bitcoin is certainly not anonymous.

And with the transaction history included, and most transactions, by necessity, tell something about you (at least the merchant probably needs to know where to send your item or whatever) it seems to me that it would be utterly trivial to get a hold of the real identity of the vast majority of the users after even his/hers first transactions. And this is valuable information and it will, as today, be bought and sold…

You can generate a new address for every transaction and thus remain untrackable.

Re: In Sweden, cash is king no more

#72

Post by algad » Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 10:29 PM UTC

joejohnson wrote: post #62

algad wrote: post #58

So in a few years, the govt. will get a report at the end of the year showing that model Swede citizen has bought more than the recommended amount of meat or alcohol or, heavens forbid, has bought tobacco products. And not enough fruit/veggies. So the friendly Swede govt. will "recommend" that model Swede citizen fork over an insane amount of money and "optionally" attend re-education classes in healthy living. Can y…

It's not really like that in Sweden. A lot more would have to change in Sweden's national government; public policy, especially with regard to privacy issues, are amongst the best in the world. This doesn't mean a super-fascist regime is impossible in the future. But why would a shift away from paper money bring about the changes you propose?

Because with all transactions recorded it would become possible and when something becomes possible, oftentimes govts are tempted. As an exemple, where I live the govt cross-checks your income tax filing with the automobile registration records and if there is, in their opinion, a discrepancy, you have to explain yourself.

Also my comment does not single out Sweden, it is more of a general observation.

Re: In Sweden, cash is king no more

#73

Post by drucken » Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 10:29 PM UTC

I think this (article page) comment says a lot about the real motivation:

"...So instead of taking the very SMALL and SLIM chance I'll get robbed by a street thug - I should switch to digital currency and just allow the banks to DEFINITELY ROB me... yeah, right..."

I also found it interesting that the article made no mention at all about the tourism industry.

So, already five strong reasons why cash will not go out of fashion any time soon:

1. Privacy.

2. Tourism.

3. Cost (tends to be important for non-banks). Both on-going and capital costs.

4. Store of value (tends to be important for elderly and some wealthy people). This can also cover electrical failure, database corruption or theft, including government or non-government financial fraud or error.

5. Ease of use (tends to be very important for elderly).

In addition, there is simply no viable alternative that covers all or even most of the above.

Re: In Sweden, cash is king no more

#74

Post by tjoff » Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 10:33 PM UTC

kristiandupont wrote: post #55

tjoff wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Swede, I always bring cash. Heading to the bar? Already have cash in the wallet. Grabbing a taxi home late at night? No need to worry that I don't have enough cash on me. Store temporarily only accept cash due to some error? Replace panic with nonexistent queue. Regardless of whether you always pay cash or always pay with a card and regardless of whether you value privacy or not - you should always, in my opnion…

Out of your three examples, only the last one is an argument for cash over cards. Is that the reason why you prefer cash? Or is it the privacy thing?

Cash is faster, I have better control over my money (but that's just because of how I'm handling them, YMMV), and the privacy part doesn't hurt - That's more of a principle than anything else, I really feel that we must have a anonymous way for payments AND that the anonymous method must not in any way be suspected of foul play just for using it. That is the first "danger" that will come, that people get so accustomed to cards that the day someone wants to pay a packet of gum with cash you get suspicious - that is something that I will truly dislike. And given the current development I see no reason as to why that won't be the case in the semi-near future.

Also, cash is much safer. That everything that is needed to take money for me is written on a card that I have to pick out for every purchase is beyond lunacy. And people actually have stomach to say that post-it notes with your password is bad (it is, but in perspective)...

So part of why I mostly use cash is of principle, cards are just so insecure. It's not that I'm afraid I'll get in trouble but part is principle and the other part is that I have no idea if my "secret" number is revealed to the wrong person. 8 months later I'll potentially be denied a purchase because the card is empty...

I do however use my card from time to time, but mostly cash. And so far the benefits of using cash are actually greater than that of a card in my eyes - so even without the benefit of security and privacy I'd still use cash.

Re: In Sweden, cash is king no more

#75

Post by xyzzyz » Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 10:33 PM UTC

spurgu wrote: post #71

tjoff wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And with the transaction history included, and most transactions, by necessity, tell something about you (at least the merchant probably needs to know where to send your item or whatever) it seems to me that it would be utterly trivial to get a hold of the real identity of the vast majority of the users after even his/hers first transactions. And this is valuable information and it will, as today, be bought and sold…

You can generate a new address for every transaction and thus remain untrackable.

Isn't bitcoin transfer from old to new address trackable?

Re: In Sweden, cash is king no more

#76

Post by dfc » Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 10:43 PM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #52

dcosson wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, pseudonymous is the right word. You can start mining bitcoins without disclosing any personally identifiable information (if you obscure your IP address or connect from a public wifi network or something), you could buy bitcoins from someone on craigslist, pay in cash and have them sent to this account, etc. But the minute you make a transaction that links this account to you, all the activity on the account is…

Actually it's much worse than this, because while your identifying information is most likely not interesting, aggregate network flows are . For example, when a node tends to aggregate transactions, we can infer that they are a 'merchant'. If their public key doesn't correspond to a known business, we can infer that they are engaged in unregulated commerce and investigate. Nevermind the very real possibility of havin…

If a payment technology can't be used to incentivize TOR nodes, it is not anonymous.

You can incentivize me to run more nodes with AMEX, Visa, MC, Travelers Checks, cash, red lobster gift certifcates or gold dubloons. From your comment that I quoted below its obvious you care about this field but I'm not sure where you were going with the above statement?

Throwing around the word 'anonymity' when one means 'psuedonymity' does a disservice to everyone interested in actual anonymous systems.

I could not agree with you more. Picture a crowd leaping to their feet shouting bravo and huzzah!!!:)

Re: In Sweden, cash is king no more

#77

Post by dfc » Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 10:45 PM UTC

spurgu wrote: post #71

tjoff wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And with the transaction history included, and most transactions, by necessity, tell something about you (at least the merchant probably needs to know where to send your item or whatever) it seems to me that it would be utterly trivial to get a hold of the real identity of the vast majority of the users after even his/hers first transactions. And this is valuable information and it will, as today, be bought and sold…

You can generate a new address for every transaction and thus remain untrackable.

How are you going to fund each new address? You have to remember that money moves from A along a vertex to B. Its the vertexes that kill you...

Re: In Sweden, cash is king no more

#78

Post by tjoff » Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 10:48 PM UTC

spurgu wrote: post #71

tjoff wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And with the transaction history included, and most transactions, by necessity, tell something about you (at least the merchant probably needs to know where to send your item or whatever) it seems to me that it would be utterly trivial to get a hold of the real identity of the vast majority of the users after even his/hers first transactions. And this is valuable information and it will, as today, be bought and sold…

You can generate a new address for every transaction and thus remain untrackable.

How will you get money on your new address? Transfer them? No luck there... (Or have I missed something?) And even with a new address you will probably reveal yourself with most transactions anyway.

Sure you can probably find a way but it will be a hassle and probably quite a hassle if you don't want to trust anyone. Because of the transaction history the only real purpose I've seen with bitcoins is the fact that you could mine them quite successfully and thus get an anonymous income, and with those mined bitcoins you could buy something that isn't tied to you, such as a VPN. That was a quite cool scenario with bitcoins in my eyes.

Sure there are some VPNs that allow you to snail-mail money to them but that is quite a hassle. But aside from that you pretty much have to use your card, and by that you reveal your identity. And given that the VPN service isn't subject to the same laws as your ISP using one could actually be even less anonymous than not using one at all.

Anyway, due to the transaction history that is the only scenario I've found bitcoins beneficial (and the reason for why I haven't even bothered to read up more on bitcoin). Would love to be wrong though.

Re: In Sweden, cash is king no more

#79

Post by icebraining » Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 10:51 PM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #34

jacobr wrote: post #33

Swede here, and as paranoid as the next person. I moved from Gmail due to privacy concerns. I block a lot of tracking domains at DNS level. However, those are trade-offs with very little negative impact in my daily routines. A slightly worse UI for my email is nothing like moving from cards back to cash. It would be like moving from the Internet back to snail mail because email is insecure, or perhaps to Stallman typ…

I get the convenience for things like paying rent, taxes, etc., but the main reason I don't use credit cards for small things is how much less convenient it is. Much easier to hand over 50 Kr than go through the routine of: gesture to indicate I'm paying with card / make way over to machine at the end of the bar (waiting if someone else is using it) / insert card / enter pin / pause to confirm it went through. Even i…

make way over to machine at the end of the bar

Really? Here in Portugal portable payment terminals are nearly ubiquitous. The rest is very true, though.

Re: In Sweden, cash is king no more

#80

Post by icebraining » Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 11:03 PM UTC

mjwalshe wrote: post #8

Chrono wrote: post #3

As a Swede I am used to always being able to pay with my card; Heading to the bar? No need to withdraw cash. Grabbing a taxi home late at night? No need to worry if you have enough cash, they accept cards. To add to this is that electronic transfer of money to both businesses and private citizens is quick and easy. If you transfer within the same bank it is instant and takes up to a day, depending on the hour, to tra…

MM so your the annoying person who isn't organized enough to bring cash and causes long queues at the bar or coffee shop when I am buying my morning coffee and paper at the train station. The more you use your card the more chance of getting skimmed using cash for small purchases is a way of reducing your attack surface.

Skimming is only a problem for magnetic stripe readers, which at least here in Portugal are increasingly rare.

Chip based readers are safe, since the chip actually performs cryptographic operations itself - the private key is never copied out.