Ingo Molnar on what ails the Linux desktop

> This is simply false, there are plenty of complex apps with varying degrees of usefulness but they certanly don't reduce to 80's game clones and few screen apps. And even if it was true it's not a result of anything intrinsic to the app model.

If I am writing "mostly", I mean "mostly" and if you refute "mostly" with "there are plenty of" you are missing even the basic tenure of a sane discussion. Check the top 100 apps in app stores/markets, and you will see how wonderful those sandboxed apps, you and ingo show us as examples of success. They are "mostly" my-web-page-as-an-app-now hype.

You miss Ingo's point, if you don't read his paragraphs, and carefully read that he compares Android/iOS core and apps to 20+ years of Linux kernel /desktop and software from various architectures, programming languages and technologies. He even claims their core is stable missing the point how young they are. The proud iOS core cannot go for more than few devices and the number of deficiencies/issues people had there are also interestingly high.

Finally, and if you really are doing all those compilations to get the latest version of a software, you might consider better considering your options of distro and package manager. Clearly you are doing something wrong there; and if you please mention what you compile on which distro and version Someone may able to understand what you are trying to achieve, and tell you what you should do instead.

> But distros only add ways to get software.

Without distros, the way to get software is unbearable for Windows converts, where it is just "click, click, done."

> what better way is there to avoid dependency hell?

All distros agreeing to ship one specific version of a lib, so that app devs can target that "standard" version instead of daily changing upstream versions.

The dependency chaos is a consequence of no distribution being influential enough (or the major players not being able to agree) to slow down the interdependent moving target that is the library space. So app devs dont care what distros ship and only target the upstream, and the upstream lib devs dont care about the overall ecosystem and just ship whenever they feel like shipping.

Nobody of them seems to care about the user experience of the end user, for whom getting on Linux seems like building on a shaky ground. And then they both pretend to not understand that a majority of end users would rather pay for Windows and have a decade of peace of mind and hassle free app availability, than moving for free to a earthquake prone area.

What you say used to be true, but does not appear to be any longer.

When was the last time we had useful improvements to the OS X user interface? 10.4 (2005) or 10.5 (2007), in my opinion. They've certainly improved under the hood, but the improvements to the UI have been mostly gimmicks like Expose.

When was the last time we had useful improvements to the Windows UI? That would be Windows Vista, 2006/2007. (W7 was basically just a stable version of Vista). Windows is certainly attempting to add improve the UI with Metro, so it's a 5 year timeframe to wait for improvements.

OTOH, in Linux land we've had KDE4, Gnome3 and Unity all land in that time period. Every 6 months we receive useful new improvements to our UI. Sure, the initial reception to KDE4, Gnome3 and Unity were all negative, but the haters are always the loudest. I haven't tried Gnome 3, but Unity 12.04 and KDE 4.8 are both really nice, much better than the OS X or Windows 7 UIs, in my opinion.

And it's not just the UI. It takes about 10 seconds for my computer to leave the BIOS and have both Firefox & Emacs open in Ubuntu. It takes the same machine over a minute to have Steam open in Windows.

> A small core set of libraries that change _very_ slowly and arent intentionally obsoleted every few months. Think of Windows like slow, stable and supported for a decade. Distribution of apps decoupled from the distribution of the base. Never make an app update trigger a lib update.

This is the idea of the linux standard base. The concept was developed over a decade ago and it has failed to show real fruit.

> You dont do that at all. Developers to that themselves like they do on Windows and OSX. Every dev packages his own app and puts it either into the App store or distributes it himself. You manage only the libs and dont allow them to change fast or in an uncoordinated, chaotic way.

You can already do this with the package management systems. For example, each game in the humble indie bundle installs into it's own /opt directory, with it's own private copies of it's dependencies. It uses the package management system to hook into desktop menu updates, etc. As a user, it's been a nightmare for me. Half of the games don't run at all and I'm at a loss for how to fix them or get replacement libraries.

Isn't the problem that the distributions are downstream to the apps and libraries they install ?

Quoting android and ios ecosystem is well and good, but in those ecosystems the os comes first and the apps are developed downstream. You simply cant have that in a linux eco system.