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Blocked by Cloudflare

jrhawley.ca

71–80 of 473 posts

Re: Blocked by Cloudflare

#71
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heuristics are about optimizing between false positives and false negatives. Many headless-browser stealth techniques involve rotating between the signatures and reflected metrics of real — but niche and/or ancient — User-Agents. (For some reason, the developers of these stealth systems think that variety beats commonality. Maybe it makes sense if they're specifically trying to overcome Apache mod_security's signatur…

> Many headless-browser stealth techniques involve rotating between the signatures and reflected metrics of real — but niche and/or ancient — User-Agents I work in this space and we just use fingerprints we collect from actual users over the previous month. The hardest work is: 1) reverse-engineering the javascript of the CAPTCHA/fingerprinting solutions so that we can collect and encapsulate the fingerprints correct…

I mean, when I'm talking about stealth techniques, I'm not talking about what I'm seeing in my own server logs, but rather about what I find built into various bits of, ahem, "anti-detect software for affiliate marketing" tech that I dredge up from fraud Telegram groups, carding marketplaces, etc. that the attackers I do catch seem to frequent. (Gotta stay five steps ahead!)

I suppose there are verticals where the data is so valuable, and the garden around it so walled-in, that you could build a whole IT business with a custom scraping stack just around extracting that data to then resell it. (I presume that's the business you're in.)

But for most verticals, the "attackers" you'll see in your logs aren't people building a data-broker business, and so aren't building their own secret-sauce anonymity from scratch; rather, they're end-users who want to do an end-run around your rate-limits, commit promotion fraud, etc., and so want to buy anonymity as a product, script-kiddie style. And "anonymity as a product", sold publicly (rather than through high-value contracts) tends to suck. It's script-kiddies buying from script-kiddies, with no real engineering in sight.

> I work in this space and we just use fingerprints we collect from actual users over the previous month.

Are you sure you're not in a citogenesis cycle? How sure are you that some of those "real users" aren't your peers' stealthed bots, who in turn picked up those fingerprints from unknowningly observing other stealthed bots in their logs, who...

Re: Blocked by Cloudflare

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah, you know, most crawlers were fine. The only one that actively DDOSed websites was fucking Yandex. It doesn't respect robots.txt and it will actively fight against any rate limits by spawning connections on new IPs the moment one is blocked

Search engine crawlers are a subset of crawlers. Sometimes you’re dealing with aggressive screen-scraping from competitors or various marketing tools. I’ve had to deal with these things easily bringing sites down.

Same, and when more than half your links are dynamic search results, it can pile on and really bring things to a crawl. I worked on a fairly popular auto classifieds website, and more than 90% of traffic was various scrapers, and some were definitely a burden. Worse, is that it doesn't show up in analytics as it's not running client-js... Ironically equally bad was when bing started scraping with JS and it skewed google analytics.

If all we had to deal with were the users, wouldn't need nearly the spend on the site. Started manually blocking some of the worst offenders.

Re: Blocked by Cloudflare

#74
post #64
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the large DDOS your ISP can handle for you if you are willing to pay for it That's exactly what people are paying Cloudflare for, because contrary to your local ISP they are actually competent at blocking a DDOS attack. People use services like Cloudflare exactly because they don't want to spend a fortune on complex infrastructure just to deal with abuse. Even a mostly-static page running on a reasonably-specced se…

> That's exactly what people are paying Cloudflare for Cloudflare actually provides this service for free (for simple use cases at least). I don't know how to come down on this issue. On one hand, I am against the centralization of cloudflare and the risks that come with it. On the other hand, cloudflare allows almost anyone to set up a simple website and serve it to large numbers of people with very little resources…

Similar mindset... also really intrigued with their developer tools as well. Workers, pages, D1, KV, etc. I was playing with a static site generator that deploys directly to a Cloudflare Pages setup, and it's lighning fast everywhere.

Re: Blocked by Cloudflare

#76
Hi there, I'm the PM for Cloudflare's challenge platform. I'd love to look into what the cause of the problem is, so you don't see these difficulties.

> Cloudflare detected the high frequency of requests and denials (but not their faulty loop that caused this pattern of requests, of course), and tagged my browser as suspicious.

I can tell you at least that we don't penalize users for this looping behavior, so this wouldn't cause us to see your browser as suspicious. I hope we can dig into this more and uncover the cause of the problem.

Personally, I'm a big Firefox user, and this isn't behavior I see. If there were a widespread Firefox wide issue, automated alerts would trigger and we'd consider this a critical incident.

You can drop me an email at amartinetti at cloudflare if you're interested in troubleshooting.

Re: Blocked by Cloudflare

#77

I've had the exact same problem for a while. Here are some of the sites I've been unable to access (found by searching for "just a moment" in my browser history): - https://gitlab.com/users/sign_in - https://steamdb.info/login/ - https://www.zabbix.com/forum/ - https://casetext.com/ - https://namemc.com/login - https://spinroot.com/ - https://camelcamelcamel.com/ It's really annoying and Cloudflare is apparently doin…

Would you be willing to share a rayID you see during one of these looping challenges? I'm the PM for Cloudflare's challenge platform, and we'd love to look into this. RayIDs contain no PII so you can share publicly, or feel free to drop me an email at amartinetti at cloudflare. We'll also release a reporting mechanism soon, so in the future you can let us know when you see these issues and we can react to them quickl…

Here's a handful:

- 7f395b5ddfe43a54

- 7f395ca09bfa3a54

- 7f395d8afaf73a54

- 7f395f075e33690d

- 7f396102afef35fd

Re: Blocked by Cloudflare

#78
Anecdote: For my programming classes, one example I use is a simple browser. It doesn't do CSS or Javacript, so display is primitive, but it works.

On some sites. Many sites, especially the big ones, see that it's an unknown browser, and refuse to send content. Probably they think it's a bot. But even if it were, what's wrong with bots, as long as they're well-behaved?

What kind of closed web have we let the megacorps build?

Re: Blocked by Cloudflare

#79
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many headless-browser stealth techniques involve rotating between the signatures and reflected metrics of real — but niche and/or ancient — User-Agents I work in this space and we just use fingerprints we collect from actual users over the previous month. The hardest work is: 1) reverse-engineering the javascript of the CAPTCHA/fingerprinting solutions so that we can collect and encapsulate the fingerprints correct…

I mean, when I'm talking about stealth techniques, I'm not talking about what I'm seeing in my own server logs, but rather about what I find built into various bits of, ahem, "anti-detect software for affiliate marketing" tech that I dredge up from fraud Telegram groups, carding marketplaces, etc. that the attackers I do catch seem to frequent. (Gotta stay five steps ahead!) I suppose there are verticals where the da…

> Are you sure you're not in a citogenesis cycle? How sure are you that some of those "real users" aren't your peers' stealthed bots, who in turn picked up those fingerprints from unknowningly observing other stealthed bots in their logs, who...

Doesn't matter, they work (at least when used in combination with high-quality proxy IP's). If they stopped working I'd do something else. We only apply hard science when absolutely needed, otherwise it's mostly wire and duct tape holding things together -- ruthless focus on creating business value.

We definitely only sell this via high-value contracts, so you're probably mostly correct there. Though puppeteer-stealth deserves at least a quiet shout-out for not completely sucking.

That said, we do pay attention to a lot of the research in the field, even if we only apply the absolute bare minimum needed to create business value. Eric Wustrow[0] at UC Boulder does really, really good work in an adjacent space, and we've found some his papers/software to be helpful, as well as those of some of the colleagues he works most closely with. I don't think he'd love our applications of his research, but our technological needs dovetail well with the needs of the anti-censorship research that he works on.

If you were interested in the degree of "citogenesis", I think that's something that academic researchers like Wustrow et. al would be very well-positioned to investigate. Highly recommend any of their papers, they make front page of HN surprisingly often.

0: https://ericw.us/trow/

Re: Blocked by Cloudflare

#80
The amount of times Cloudflare is making me sit through their 15 to 30 second "checking your connection" page is insane.

For people going through life with ADHD such as myself, the impact of all these delays and disruptions throughout the day can be severe. Despite being properly medicated this measure is absolutely debilitating and makes for a dreadful and very taxing online experience.

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