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E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

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Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#71

Post by Turskarama »

analog31 wrote: post #64
ravenstine wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there so much of a shortage of hardware engineering talent that these startups really need to be using hobby hardware? I am not formally trained in electronics, but I managed to learn enough in the last year to design and manufacture my own PCBs for respiratory breath analysis with Atmel microprocessors. Essentially, they're like Arduinos but I also attached an off-the-shelf SD card reader and a bluetooth module.…

I design my own boards too, but throwing a SOM into my layout is way too attractive to pass up, especially when schedule matters more than COGS. Make-versus-buy decisions abound in product development. If you aren't a full stack electronics and firmware designer, then you have to manage the design project with its uncertainties, including schedule. A buy-in gets you moving right away, to address other project issues…

Sure but the added cost is not a big factor when you're making a handful of them.. If you're making tens of thousands though? Then it begins to add up.

Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#72

Post by jahsome »

xeckr wrote: post #42
arcticbull wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When opportunists go to crack them open, they find a raspberry pi, an SBC created for educational and hobby purposes but has been infamously out of stock because larger companies want to vacuum them all up to use in their own products. What a strange complaint. RPIs are out of stock because they're useful - this company found a use for them. Really the issue isn't one of who's buying, but rather an issue of the Fou…

>RPIs are out of stock because they're useful - this company found a use for them. While I sympathize with this sentiment, it should be noted that their use case could have been most likely accomplished with something like an ESP32, which is only slightly more difficult to work with but boasts a bulk price of $1-3 a pop. Using a Raspberry Pi 4 for this is a bit like flying a private jet to get to the grocery store.

The only time I think I'll ever see a pi compared to a jet, hah!

Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#73

Post by drdaeman »

mschuster91 wrote: post #15
samtho wrote: post #12

This would be hilariously satirical if it were not true and it highlights much of what is wrong with tech. A benture capital subsidized micro mobility startup pulls out of a major city ostensibly because threshold for potential profit has been crossed and they’ve determined they cannot adjust their pricing to get the right numbers on their spreadsheet (note: this likely part of the reason why so many of these compani…

> After the presumably thousands of hours of labor that went into designing this, they went with a consumer grade, off the shelf product for an application that would have required a fraction of the power it was capable of? Driving the 3-phase motor yes, that can (and is usually) done with a dedicated real-time MCU/ASIC. But the interface with the backend, the actual brains? You need to deal with GPS, authentication…

> GPS, authentication (unlock via app/bluetooth/...), ride logging, debug data. And at that point an ESP32 or heaven forbid an Arduino won't cut it either

Why? ATMega board is surely a questionable fit, but ESP32, or nRF52, or some STM32 board with Bluetooth all should be fully capable of doing the basics. I can't imagine those scooters do some fancy signal processing on-board or handle some particularly heavy traffic. ESP32 is capable of wrapping and transmitting a decent video stream (and even do some basic detection while it's at it) - surely it's much more data than some route information and various on-board telemetry. GPS and cellular are just talking over some bus to a module (pretty much the same as with rPI4), Bluetooth is available and not resource-expensive at all. So is talking to whatever relays run or block the motors - I imagine that's probably just a bunch of GPIOs. All that remains is need for some RAM to store/buffer the traces (ESP32, or one can throw in some external storage) and a basic TLS and MQTT implementation (or whatever tech would make most sense there) for the command and status message queue.

And most importantly, average ESP32 energy consumption is way smaller than rPI4's (it's pretty hot even when it idles). While I understand that scooters have large batteries, it still matters.

Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#74

Post by sudosysgen »

chasd00 wrote: post #38
hattmall wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's not AT ALL the right tool for the job. And it shows that they don't even have one remotely competent hardware person on the team. Yes, it can work, but even at retail it's too expensive, requires too much power, and has a vastly higher rate of problems than many other off the shelf, far cheaper and much more widely available products.

The thing about the Pi is, since it runs an actual Linux os, you can take garden variety web devs and have them write code for it. You don’t need any esoteric hardware devs to fiddle all day with bits and writing drivers before they even start on the actual use case. That alone makes the Pi super attractive for startups.

Yes, that's the problem. I don't want a vehicle I'm relying on for my safety to be programmed by web developers and running an non-RT OS. Even if it's just doing remote management stuff.

Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#75

Post by drdaeman »

Turskarama wrote: post #70
post-it wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a 20 kg scooter, of course it's easy to steal.

It already has GPS and an internet connection. Easy to steal, yes, but also trivial to find.

I suspect both of those are external module/boards plugged to the rPI. It doesn't require a degree in electronics or software engineering to unplug all connectors from the board and move the scooter away from its last location. Or, you know, just disconnect the battery.

I've no idea about those scooters, but I won't be surprised if it's all behind some plastic panel held by few screws.

Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#76

Post by internetter »

fnord77 wrote: post #40
talldatethrow wrote: post #32

Wait, so if I find one of these in SF I'm just allowed to take it? How do we know when they've been 'abandoned' locally?

[flagged]

Woah, didn't know this. What was the intent? Why hasn't this been reversed? All I'm seeing online is people who think this is a bad idea, are there supporters?

Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#77

Post by barbazoo »

ravenstine wrote: post #62
barbazoo wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes the RPi "hobby hardware"?

I'm referring to the OP's terminology, but it's also not entirely untrue. The intent of the Raspberry Pi was/is not to be a shortcut for tech startups who can't C++ their way out of a paper bag. It's also not like the Rpi has enough power to be of practical use to the average person, or even most atypical folks, hence it's more of a hobby or educational tool.

Interesting, but this has a hint of gatekeeping I would say. If someone makes a product and it's somewhat successful, who cares what it's built on!? The actual intent according to their website is

> Computing for everybody

> From industries large and small, to the kitchen table tinkerer, to the classroom coder, we make computing accessible and affordable for everybody.

https://www.raspberrypi.com/

I would say that's exactly what we're seeing here.

Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#78

Post by Turskarama »

drdaeman wrote: post #75
Turskarama wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It already has GPS and an internet connection. Easy to steal, yes, but also trivial to find.

I suspect both of those are external module/boards plugged to the rPI. It doesn't require a degree in electronics or software engineering to unplug all connectors from the board and move the scooter away from its last location. Or, you know, just disconnect the battery. I've no idea about those scooters, but I won't be surprised if it's all behind some plastic panel held by few screws.

Damn I wonder if this problem could have been solved by making a dedicated board.

Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#79

Post by whoknowsidont »

fnord77 wrote: post #40
talldatethrow wrote: post #32

Wait, so if I find one of these in SF I'm just allowed to take it? How do we know when they've been 'abandoned' locally?

[flagged]

This is a common trope and dishonest statement among certain political factions, there is no need to bring that here (or anywhere for that matter).

Consider your words and positions carefully, they look like they could use some attention.

Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#80

Post by nyanpasu64 »

barbazoo wrote: post #77
ravenstine wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm referring to the OP's terminology, but it's also not entirely untrue. The intent of the Raspberry Pi was/is not to be a shortcut for tech startups who can't C++ their way out of a paper bag. It's also not like the Rpi has enough power to be of practical use to the average person, or even most atypical folks, hence it's more of a hobby or educational tool.

Interesting, but this has a hint of gatekeeping I would say. If someone makes a product and it's somewhat successful, who cares what it's built on!? The actual intent according to their website is > Computing for everybody > From industries large and small, to the kitchen table tinkerer, to the classroom coder, we make computing accessible and affordable for everybody. https://www.raspberrypi.com/ I would say that's…

IMO every company, employee, or hobbyist should be able to buy the same number of Pis. Fulfilling orders of thousands for corporations while leaving individuals to fight over out-of-stock listings is not computing for everybody.
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