“Web Environment Integrity”: Locking Down the Web • Hacker News Board

Re: “Web Environment Integrity”: Locking Down the Web

#71

Post by somat » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 12:08 AM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #46

pjerem wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have an issue. Firefox is not slow by any means. I use all the browsers for work and Firefox for my navigation. Firefox have never been slower than anything else.

Clearly, I do, yes! But I've given up on trying to nail down what the issue actually is after about a year of trying. It exists on all of my machines, so it's likely related to some other piece of software I commonly use. I just don't know which one. I am not asserting that FF is bad and nobody should use it. I'm asserting that there are some people (at least one, anyway) who can't use it. Shaming people for not usin…

my guess is filtered dns.

I just audited my system(firefox 110 on openbsd). and when dns is acting up(I disabled external dns leaving only my internal domains resolvable) firefox takes forever to do anything waiting on dns timeouts.

firefox is making requests to

  www.google.com #why? I don't have google set as my default search engine.
  detectportal.firefox.com
  9.9.9.9.https  #???? this is strange. DoH? but I should have it disabled.
  contile.services.mozilla.com.        
  firefox.settings.services.mozilla.com.
  content-signature-2.cdn.mozilla.net.
  push.services.mozilla.com.

And I probably missed a few.

Well, Sigh, I have a new weekend project. poking around in about:config trying to turn this bullshit off off.

Re: “Web Environment Integrity”: Locking Down the Web

#72

Post by Brian_K_White » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 3:12 AM UTC

wilsonnb3 wrote: post #41

mrguyorama wrote: post #10

What is Brave going to do when the code for WEI becomes load bearing in the chromium code base? Still excuse after excuse after excuse to just not use Firefox. I literally don't care if you have to hold up your nose, there's only one actual alternative browser engine, and it's a matter of survival for anyone who doesn't want the whole internet controlled by google. It could be half as fast (it isn't) and use twice as…

IMO the best hedges against Googles web monopoly at the moment are Apple and Microsoft, not Mozilla. Apple because of Safari (duh) and Microsoft because they are possibly the only company that could reasonably maintain a hard Chromium fork in the case of Google going crazy. Unfortunately all three of them are more or less aligned on this issue of remote attestation so I don't really see a path forward. Firefox just d…

Neither Microsoft nor Apple has any problem with your or my problem with Google.

Re: “Web Environment Integrity”: Locking Down the Web

#73

Post by raxxorraxor » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 5:41 AM UTC

sedatk wrote: post #45

Melatonic wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly modern Firefox works better than Chrome for me at everything - better memory management - faster loading times - better extension support.

Firefox is great but I can't make it my daily driver because of two issues: - Terrible font kerning on canvas (Google Docs, Spreadsheets) (probably a decade old bug) - Doesn't sync icons in favorites bar (which I use without accompanying text, so, big deal)

Never noticed the fonts, but I noticed the vastly reduced image quality in Chrome on many websites that scaled down images.

Re: “Web Environment Integrity”: Locking Down the Web

#74

Post by renegat0x0 » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 5:48 AM UTC

Browsing these days is like going into jungle. I use Adblock, ghostery, noscript, pihole. To have a good experience you cannot go in unprepared. Some pages require some scripts to be running. Then I will not go in. I think it will be the same with WEI. If a page asks me for it, I will not go in. Sorry, but no. It may be harder over time, but if I cant't change the world, I van browse on my own terms. There needs to be extension that will be blocking WEI.

We need a list od pages that supports it and we need to same the for their support of WEI

Re: “Web Environment Integrity”: Locking Down the Web

#75

Post by stevage » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 6:44 AM UTC

Melatonic wrote: post #14

mrguyorama wrote: post #10

What is Brave going to do when the code for WEI becomes load bearing in the chromium code base? Still excuse after excuse after excuse to just not use Firefox. I literally don't care if you have to hold up your nose, there's only one actual alternative browser engine, and it's a matter of survival for anyone who doesn't want the whole internet controlled by google. It could be half as fast (it isn't) and use twice as…

Honestly modern Firefox works better than Chrome for me at everything - better memory management - faster loading times - better extension support.

I love it.

Although currently I am mostly using Chrome for web dev, and Firefox for everything else. On my current project, FF just couldn't seem to handle the churn of constantly loading heavy pages, dev tools etc.

I should switch to a chromium really.

Re: “Web Environment Integrity”: Locking Down the Web

#76

Post by raxxorraxor » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 7:49 AM UTC

wilsonnb3 wrote: post #41

mrguyorama wrote: post #10

What is Brave going to do when the code for WEI becomes load bearing in the chromium code base? Still excuse after excuse after excuse to just not use Firefox. I literally don't care if you have to hold up your nose, there's only one actual alternative browser engine, and it's a matter of survival for anyone who doesn't want the whole internet controlled by google. It could be half as fast (it isn't) and use twice as…

IMO the best hedges against Googles web monopoly at the moment are Apple and Microsoft, not Mozilla. Apple because of Safari (duh) and Microsoft because they are possibly the only company that could reasonably maintain a hard Chromium fork in the case of Google going crazy. Unfortunately all three of them are more or less aligned on this issue of remote attestation so I don't really see a path forward. Firefox just d…

The best course against web integrity is not let it establish itself. So we need to identity attestation servers and block them on the networks we maintain.

Re: “Web Environment Integrity”: Locking Down the Web

#77

Post by Incipient » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 8:56 AM UTC

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #64

Melatonic wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly modern Firefox works better than Chrome for me at everything - better memory management - faster loading times - better extension support.

There is only one set of site where Chrome performs better than Firefox: sites made by Google. I can't help but assume that it's intentional. Unfortunately, for many people those are very important sites. The Internet desperately needs some government to step in and force Google to spin off Chrome as an independent company. It's the only hope we have of stopping Google from completely ruining the Internet.

In this era we need to move to the idea of "effective monopolies". Just because Chrome isn't an absolute monopoly, doesn't mean it can't essentially dictate whatever direction it wants in a mostly unchecked manner.

Re: “Web Environment Integrity”: Locking Down the Web

#78

Post by kaba0 » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 9:22 AM UTC

antisthenes wrote: post #69

JeremyNT wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, this is what it looks like if/when we've fully lost the fight. Those of us who currently recommend Firefox are hoping that there's still enough time to do something about this. Maybe it's already too late, but you might as well try, you know?

Firefox is The fight was lost long ago, several times (once when they decided to throw out thousands of developer work years by gimping all the addons)

Google is just as beholden to Firefox existing, if it doesn’t want to be sued to oblivion.

Re: “Web Environment Integrity”: Locking Down the Web

#79

Post by kaba0 » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 9:26 AM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #34

mrguyorama wrote: post #10

What is Brave going to do when the code for WEI becomes load bearing in the chromium code base? Still excuse after excuse after excuse to just not use Firefox. I literally don't care if you have to hold up your nose, there's only one actual alternative browser engine, and it's a matter of survival for anyone who doesn't want the whole internet controlled by google. It could be half as fast (it isn't) and use twice as…

Firefox is legitimately not an option for me. It's literally unusably slow. So slow that it's not actually better than no browser at all.

These comments should are as useful as claiming that that magic alternative bullshit medicine cured my cancer. N=1, not reproducible and likely has zero relevance.

You should post to firefox support/some stackexchange site or whatever to fix your problem, not comment on the quality of a product you have failed to properly evaluate.

Re: “Web Environment Integrity”: Locking Down the Web

#80

Post by pieter_mj » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 10:30 AM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #46

pjerem wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have an issue. Firefox is not slow by any means. I use all the browsers for work and Firefox for my navigation. Firefox have never been slower than anything else.

Clearly, I do, yes! But I've given up on trying to nail down what the issue actually is after about a year of trying. It exists on all of my machines, so it's likely related to some other piece of software I commonly use. I just don't know which one. I am not asserting that FF is bad and nobody should use it. I'm asserting that there are some people (at least one, anyway) who can't use it. Shaming people for not usin…

>It exists on all of my machines

What machines, did you assemble the hardware yourself? On a reasonably modern android phone, firefox is fluent even with dozens of tabs and there's nothing you can do to make it slow.