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Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota

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Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota

#71

Post by Volundr »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #47
JohnFen wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I'm never been PIP'd myself, but I've seen it happen to many -- and it's never resulted in anything good, nor has it ever seemed as if the purpose was actually to improve anyone's performance. It's usually seems like just a thing that has to be done before you can fire them. Even when the PIP'd employee isn't fired, the PIP remains a scarlet letter on them for the rest of their time at that company. I'm…

I think it may be a self-reinforcing attitude. When I mentioned to a coworker that I had been on a PIP and transitioned out of it, he was amazed. He'd never heard of anyone being removed from one so he assumed that once you're on a PIP you'll eventually be fired. I think most people put on PIPs think the same: I'm going to be fired anyway, so why bother doing anything about this? That said, I am absolutely convinced…

I also think people have a tendency to be unrealistic (with themselves and/or others) about why they were fired. I certainly know that in terms of the employees I've let go, the version of events they've told people that got back to me were pretty far from what actually happened. Maybe some of those people who were fired after being on a PIP really were unjustly let go to cut costs, or maybe it's just more comfortable to tell people/themselves that. And since the manager/company probably isn't talking it's a narrative that generally doesn't get challenged.

Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota

#72

Post by tivert »

ablatt89 wrote: post #24
fourseventy wrote: post #20

This guys boss picked him to be on the performance improvement plan. Even if his boss was forced to pick someone because of quota, the fact that he was picked must mean he was at the bottom of the pack in terms of performance. My advice would be to be humble enough to admit that the performance can be improved and take ownership of that fact and not make excuses like " my boss put me on notice because of a quota, i g…

PIPs are used as tools to lay people off or get revenge often. It's not meant to be an actual "performance improvement plan." There's many stories of people hitting all requirements within the PIP to still not hit "the bar" due to a constantly arbitrary and changing PIP requirement. PIP is often a cowardice way to do layoffs or for upper management to not admit they have too many resources allocated for their own del…

IIRC, PIPs are literally designed mainly to create a paper trail to avoid unlawful termination lawsuits. By the time you're on a PIP, you're manager already has decided he doesn't like your performance and wants you out.

Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota

#73

Post by candiodari »

yanslookup wrote: post #58
clemailacct1 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately as someone who worked there in a management role for over 9 years, it’s heard of and talked about - but rarely directly. I’m shocked OP was told the truth.

No truth was told to the OP. You need to document your reasons why a PIP is needed. As someone points out in this thread, the whole point of the PIP process is to get a paper trail ready if Google is going to fire someone to avoid accusations of discrimination. HR will block any PIP with "My manager says so" as the basis. The people that say "My hand was forced" are lying to you and lying to themselves and are frankl…

The whole point of having line managers write PIPs together with employees is to have these vaguely valid-seeming reasons on PIPs. There is, however, also a reason the PIP process got initiated. It is never the line manager that initiates a PIP process (you'd have to have exceptionally poor performance for that, frankly I wonder if they even have the power to do so).

You get onto a PIP because some external-to-the-team person, maybe a TPM, maybe a higher up manager, complained about you. They don't always explain why to your manager, in fact, it's probably generally a smart move for them NOT to say why (frankly, some people complain to your manager because you came to the office with untied shoelaces).

When that happens (maybe your manager gives you two or three "strikes"), your manager comes to you and writes a PIP. What that PIP will NEVER say is "make X not complain about you anymore". It will say "write more code", "take ownership of bugs", "take more feedback into account", because, as you point out, HR would freak if it said "do what X says". Plus, of course, if at all possible your manager will try to not have you work with that complaining person anymore. Which would make such a PIP redundant/impossible.

PIPs are always because someone asked for them. Maybe (hopefully) indirectly, and not always (one hopes never, but ...) for the reason "quota", but essentially always because someone asked for them. PIPs never say that, so they never give the real reason. The point is indeed to scare you into being "more cooperative".

HR kind-of tells the truth: the point of a PIP is to make you a better employee. It really is. All else equal, they want it to go away as much as you do. But if it doesn't go away, the point of a PIP is to fire you, safely, without getting sued afterwards, without HR having to do any work at all.

Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota

#74

Post by cajunboi34213 »

teraflop wrote: post #27
cajunboi34213 wrote: post #22

Get some documentation that proves this. Hire a lawyer. Go to HR. Get a settlement...

This is sarcasm, right? If not: in general, in the US, it's perfectly legal for a company to just arbitrarily decide they need to fire N people, and arbitrarily choose a particular person to fire meet that "quota". This is true regardless of how many layers of managers are involved, or what bullshit PIP hoops are jumped through. There would only be a legal issue if the worker was subject to a bona-fife employment con…

Not sarcastic but you're probably right in terms of no real legal course. But here's the thing, you're getting fired anyway. Depending on company size, they may give you something nominal just so you sign a non-disclosure and don't create bad PR for them.

Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota

#75

Post by dzdt »

nine_zeros wrote: post #62
dzdt wrote: post #50

I only learned about what is a Performamce Improvement Plan (PIP) from managerial training at my BigCorp. Assuming it works pretty consistently across the industry, a PIP basically means you are slated to be fired. Circumstances may change, and by all means pay attention to and try to improve the metrics they ask you to improve, but don't hold any illusions. You are almost certainly leaving that job in the next year…

My advice is to let them fire you. Waste the managers time until the last day so that they suffer during that time as well. Once you are fired, you can apply for unemployment benefits which is paid for by the insurance of that company. If they are not willing to treat employees humanely, it is fair game for employees to not be honest with them.

Business relationships are not zero sum games. There is no benefit to you to making them suffer (besides I guess some temporary pleasure in the vindictiveness?). Focus on what helps you long term; if there are relationships with individual managers you can keep a good relationship with that can come back around as a future benefit. But mostly know from the corporate perspective this is "just business" and you should look out for your own interests not theirs.

Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota

#76

Post by nine_zeros »

dzdt wrote: post #75
nine_zeros wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My advice is to let them fire you. Waste the managers time until the last day so that they suffer during that time as well. Once you are fired, you can apply for unemployment benefits which is paid for by the insurance of that company. If they are not willing to treat employees humanely, it is fair game for employees to not be honest with them.

Business relationships are not zero sum games. There is no benefit to you to making them suffer (besides I guess some temporary pleasure in the vindictiveness?). Focus on what helps you long term; if there are relationships with individual managers you can keep a good relationship with that can come back around as a future benefit. But mostly know from the corporate perspective this is "just business" and you should…

Exactly, it should be taken as "just business" from an employee perspective. From employee perspective, they should capitalize on the fact that the pay will disappear soon. So might as well use that time to benefit their own future, much like the employer is doing.
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