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Closure, from why the lucky stiff (2013)

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Re: Closure, from why the lucky stiff (2013)

#71
post #21
post #8

Would anyone be willing to explain this? Who is "us", what is a PCL, what is a spool, what are these random words? Is this supposed to be a puzzle?

Others already explained this, I just wanted to add that you make me feel old...

I'm 48. I don't think age has anything to do with knowing the context behind this. From the other explanations, you apparently had to follow a very specific subculture dedicated to a specific individual. I did not, rather the opposite. I tried to read his Ruby book when it came out and I simply couldn't. No offense to the vast army of folks who enjoyed it -- I think we're all allowed to like what we like.

There's something wrong with the way my brain is wired. I am by accounts an intelligent, capable, successful person, but I am completely unable to "read" comic books. I might as well be staring at a foreign language. When I'm trying to learn a technical topic, I thrive on dry reference material. Put a cartoon in and it's like running into a brick wall.

I don't know where I was going there except I feel like any time this comes up, I have to over-explain myself for not liking that book, because everybody loves that book and I will be burned at the stake for not regarding it as the greatest programming book ever written. It's just my personal experience, and I accept that I'm totally wrong about it, ok? Anyway, shorter version is that I had such a visceral reaction, any time I see "why_" mentioned, my reading comprehension reverts to that of a toddler.

If that's all irrelevant and the point you were making was more like "kids today don't know what PCL is", I am very familiar with PCL and print spoolers, but detached from any context that would suggest printers, they failed to take on any semantic value.

Re: Closure, from why the lucky stiff (2013)

#72
post #60
post #14

_why's work was much of what got me into Ruby in the first place. Not so much quirky as proudly both hyperliterate and unhinged, like the computing world's extension of depressed indie bands meeting David Foster Wallace in the early aughts. Most of us that would've been into _why's stuff now have more traditional-looking jobs and responsibilities. But I'm so grateful for what he showed us then, and miss the more genu…

Honestly at the time I remember getting weird twee/precious vibes from the Ruby community and I wasn't particularly interested in it or Rails. I only discovered _why's poignant guide later after I had to learn Rails on the job, and to be honest I never finished it. I still strongly prefer the worldview, circumstances, mindset, etc. where that kind of content is written, read, and celebrated over today's focus on Infl…

I don't.

Even in the terms of the false dichotomy you've constructed here, I would much rather participate in a community of professionals who've organized themselves around sufficiently overlapping shared intents, than one accreted around the kind of twee, precious narcissism that characterized the early days of Ruby and Rails.

That comparison is informed by direct experience with both, and is the precise reason why my professional experience with both the language and the platform will to my dying day consist of one successful project a few months long.

A good professional community supports a wide variety of learning styles and levels of engagement, and tends to make a lot of resources easy to find for anyone who's willing to put in a little effort of research. The early Ruby and Rails communities did the exact opposite of this. Between "_why"'s guide serving a primary-reference role to which it is manifestly ill suited, and nobody much bothering to document anything effectively outside that, figuring out how to work with their garbage software was like pulling teeth - especially because, in a language constructed as a farrago of the worst ideas from Perl, Smalltalk, and Common Lisp, even reading the source is anything but a guarantee of understanding.

The structural exclusivity alone was bad enough, but the behavior of community leaders quickly demonstrated that the exclusivity was the point. That the "Poignant Guide" should be considered acceptable as primary documentation implies that the function of selecting for people willing to put up with that kind of nonsense was intended - maybe not as a matter of explicit design, although this would not surprise me, but "the purpose of a system is what it does". This system was created by narcissists to select for acolytes, and while I wouldn't quite call it a cult, neither am I prepared to say those who have are entirely wrong. And if it was a cult, it was a stupid cult, because Ruby is a language that makes programmers worse and Rails was never good technology; its sole unqualified success lies in having inspired software engineers to do similar things in better ways.

I'm sure by now I've upset some folks; there are some for whom no criticism of Ruby, Rails, or their leading lights can fail to read as a personal attack. If that's you who's reading this now, all I can say is this shows the difference between us: if you're cut out to be an acolyte, fine, go to it! I would rather be a practitioner in a community of practice. Granted this means my technical documentation comes without cartoon foxes and a level of pretense suited to an early 2000s Abercrombie catalog, but for documentation that actually documents that's a trade I'm happy to make.

Re: Closure, from why the lucky stiff (2013)

#73
post #60
post #14

_why's work was much of what got me into Ruby in the first place. Not so much quirky as proudly both hyperliterate and unhinged, like the computing world's extension of depressed indie bands meeting David Foster Wallace in the early aughts. Most of us that would've been into _why's stuff now have more traditional-looking jobs and responsibilities. But I'm so grateful for what he showed us then, and miss the more genu…

Honestly at the time I remember getting weird twee/precious vibes from the Ruby community and I wasn't particularly interested in it or Rails. I only discovered _why's poignant guide later after I had to learn Rails on the job, and to be honest I never finished it. I still strongly prefer the worldview, circumstances, mindset, etc. where that kind of content is written, read, and celebrated over today's focus on Infl…

I seem to remember multiple incidents where Rails programmers complained that everyone at the conference they went to was playing Werewolf instead of sticking to the topic. It made me wonder what kind of community would lead to that.

As for _why, there is nothing special about him. If you need an overly precious twee white guy, we have a natural source of them called the city of Portland. You can go find another ten of them there. They have waxed mustaches and are running combination coffee bars and thrift stores.

Re: Closure, from why the lucky stiff (2013)

#74
post #14

_why's work was much of what got me into Ruby in the first place. Not so much quirky as proudly both hyperliterate and unhinged, like the computing world's extension of depressed indie bands meeting David Foster Wallace in the early aughts. Most of us that would've been into _why's stuff now have more traditional-looking jobs and responsibilities. But I'm so grateful for what he showed us then, and miss the more genu…

I miss that in general. Everyone has become a Cool Internet Person who acts like a celebrity, or at least in a homogenized way. I miss the internet of weirdos, that felt separate from the real world. I worry a lot that I contributed to how this is now, too, in my professional life.

All frontiers close eventually. I wouldn't take too much on myself about it, if I were you.

Re: Closure, from why the lucky stiff (2013)

#75
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly at the time I remember getting weird twee/precious vibes from the Ruby community and I wasn't particularly interested in it or Rails. I only discovered _why's poignant guide later after I had to learn Rails on the job, and to be honest I never finished it. I still strongly prefer the worldview, circumstances, mindset, etc. where that kind of content is written, read, and celebrated over today's focus on Infl…

I seem to remember multiple incidents where Rails programmers complained that everyone at the conference they went to was playing Werewolf instead of sticking to the topic. It made me wonder what kind of community would lead to that. As for _why, there is nothing special about him. If you need an overly precious twee white guy, we have a natural source of them called the city of Portland. You can go find another ten…

[deleted]

Re: Closure, from why the lucky stiff (2013)

#76
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to remember multiple incidents where Rails programmers complained that everyone at the conference they went to was playing Werewolf instead of sticking to the topic. It made me wonder what kind of community would lead to that. As for _why, there is nothing special about him. If you need an overly precious twee white guy, we have a natural source of them called the city of Portland. You can go find another ten…

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Closure, from why the lucky stiff (2013)

#77
post #71
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others already explained this, I just wanted to add that you make me feel old...

I'm 48. I don't think age has anything to do with knowing the context behind this. From the other explanations, you apparently had to follow a very specific subculture dedicated to a specific individual. I did not, rather the opposite. I tried to read his Ruby book when it came out and I simply couldn't. No offense to the vast army of folks who enjoyed it -- I think we're all allowed to like what we like. There's som…

You can be perfectly capable of reading a comic book and not really care to try to learn technical information by way of a comic book.

I'd much rather learn from concise code examples, with short explanations for new concepts. It's a lot more efficient than wading through all the irrelevant prose and illustration.

Re: Closure, from why the lucky stiff (2013)

#78
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly at the time I remember getting weird twee/precious vibes from the Ruby community and I wasn't particularly interested in it or Rails. I only discovered _why's poignant guide later after I had to learn Rails on the job, and to be honest I never finished it. I still strongly prefer the worldview, circumstances, mindset, etc. where that kind of content is written, read, and celebrated over today's focus on Infl…

I don't. Even in the terms of the false dichotomy you've constructed here, I would much rather participate in a community of professionals who've organized themselves around sufficiently overlapping shared intents, than one accreted around the kind of twee, precious narcissism that characterized the early days of Ruby and Rails. That comparison is informed by direct experience with both, and is the precise reason why…

There was a lot of quirkiness and egotism then, the cult of personality was rife, not just with project leaders such as DHH but ancillary dramas from folks like Zed Shaw.

The stuff from _why was always wacky but some of their projects were also really inspiring for younger programmers, of which I was one. I could take or leave the cartoon foxes but I remember seeing the code for the Camping framework when it was released and being amazed at how simple and elegant it was.

The ruby and rails community set a path that is followed by many to this day. We're all python programmers now but there'd be no Flask without Sinatra, or Django without Rails. The author of the excellent dependency management tool Bundler went onto work on Yarn for javascript and then created Cargo for rust. Mitchell Hashimoto wrote Vagrant in ruby before starting hashicorp, there's loads of examples like this

I disagree that the Poingant Guide was the primary documentation for anything, it was a quirky guide for new comers. The Pragmatic bookshelf had the definitive guide to the language, as well as the rails book and then a whole series of other publications. I also remember spending a lot of time on the core ruby documentation, which does a fantastic job of covering the extensive standard library.

Re: Closure, from why the lucky stiff (2013)

#79
post #38
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was very much of a time and place, and obviously people are welcome to take or leave it. I certainly cringe that every language now seems to need its own twee, jokey, book-long tutorial, like Learn You a Haskell for Great Good and Clojure for the Brave and True. But Why’s (Poignant) Guide captured the playfulness and nostalgia for lost time that the Ruby community evoked for a lot of people back then, especially t…

I don't think the jokey book-long tutorial is a new phenomenon. I learned Fortran in the 80s from the Fortran Coloring Book.

1981 Getting Started with TRS-80 Basic was also playful - https://archive.org/details/Getting_Started_with_TRS-80_Basi...

Re: Closure, from why the lucky stiff (2013)

#80
post #71
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others already explained this, I just wanted to add that you make me feel old...

I'm 48. I don't think age has anything to do with knowing the context behind this. From the other explanations, you apparently had to follow a very specific subculture dedicated to a specific individual. I did not, rather the opposite. I tried to read his Ruby book when it came out and I simply couldn't. No offense to the vast army of folks who enjoyed it -- I think we're all allowed to like what we like. There's som…

Idem. I remember not being able to get past the first page of the guide way back in the day, and indeed cannot today either. The signal to noise ratio is just abysmal.

I also cannot read comic books and, with perhaps the exception of the systemd man pages, likewise thrive on reference material.

Somewhat relatedly, I can't really do podcasts or audiobooks, either, unless they're in a foreign language, and then the challenge of comprehension provides something for my brain to latch onto.

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