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Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

theguardian.com

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Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#71

Post by theluketaylor »

birdyrooster wrote: post #68
craig1f wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. Hydrogen is like crypto. It has just enough interesting tech to attract (using D&D terminology here) high INT, low WIS people. Hydrogen will probably never work unless someone comes up with a stable molecule that includes hydrogen, is large enough to not move through solid objects, and still retains enough chemical energy to be useful. Ammonium is one option, but it is highly toxic. Only really practica…

Drive a new Supra and you will be disavowed of this notion. They are hella torquey with no lag. Outperforms EVs in many ways.

Supra isn't a Toyota; it's a BMW, so it isn't exactly helping the case that Toyota is on the right development path. They have to use a partner for high performance applications since they can't be bothered to develop their own.

B58 is a truly great combustion engine, but the idea any turbocharged ICE can compete with an electric motor for input lag is ridiculous. B58's twin scroll turbos certainly reduce lag compared with more run-of-the-mill turbo engines, but even naturally aspirated race engines with light flywheels feel laggy after driving even low-end BEVs.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#72

Post by _hypx »

panick21_ wrote: post #66
_hypx wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally everyone has a massive incentive to make green hydrogen work. It is pretty fundamental to industry, manufacturing, agriculture, transportation, etc. There is no path to zero emissions without it. In reality, just a handful of vocal BEV fans oppose this technology on purely personal grounds.

> Literally everyone has a massive incentive to make green hydrogen work. There is also the reality that certain company have taken a lot of money for a long time without producing many results. Specially if its fossil fuel companies that rubs people the wrong way. Just as giving money to Ford and GM wasn't the solution to get EV going. So its understandable that many people don't love the promotion of it. I am as an…

These are opinions based on profound ignorance. Many sectors can never reach zero emissions without hydrogen. Things like airplanes and ships. You must invest in the infrastructure no matter what.

And how can you have hydrogen for steel production without necessarily reducing the cost to the ballpark of coal or natural gas? If you can grasp that part, you should realize that it must be a cheap fuel in the future. Cheap enough that it can be easily affordable for transportation purposes. And for those who can't afford BEVs or don't have access to chargers, that is major motivation to pursue hydrogen cars.

Ultimately, you're left with many unsolvable problems if you try to tackle climate change without looking at hydrogen where it is applicable. You also need to think seriously about the downside of alternative ideas, and not pretend they are magically perfect. Batteries are heavy and expensive, nor are they environmental friendly to produce. If you see hydrogen as a far greener type of energy storage, then you will see there are upsides too. In other words, you are only looking at the cons, not the pros and the cons.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#73

Post by theluketaylor »

_hypx wrote: post #47
staticautomatic wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not underestimate the amount of weight behind the development and commercialization of hydrogen technology. Everyone in the oil and gas industry, including natural gas utilities, has a strong incentive to figure out how to make it work.

Literally everyone has a massive incentive to make green hydrogen work. It is pretty fundamental to industry, manufacturing, agriculture, transportation, etc. There is no path to zero emissions without it. In reality, just a handful of vocal BEV fans oppose this technology on purely personal grounds.

I'm one of those vocal opponents for hydrogen cars, but I do like the technology in general. I'm a huge fan of hydrogen for agriculture, forestry, and other big applications where grid access is really challenging and even small gaps to recharge are unacceptable. Personal transport just doesn't make the list.

Hydrogen won't ever make sense for personal transportation since the cost of batteries has come down way too far. Green hydrogen under perfect conditions has way too many efficiency penalties to compete with pure battery vehicles, so the cost per unit distance just won't ever make sense compared to the tiny losses for batteries.

I don't even care that much if companies like Toyota want to waste their development dollars on personal hydrogen transport that won't ever happen. I just want to make sure subsidy dollars are spent correctly. Use government money on decarbonizing farms and long distance heavy transport with hydrogen. Don't waste that money on cars that will always be too expensive to operate compared with BEVs.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#74

Post by _hypx »

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #70
_hypx wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author of that article is simply wrong. I've seen this post more than once now and it is becoming a serious mistake on their part. FYI, high energy density li-ion batteries existed since 2009: https://news.panasonic.com/global/press/en091218-2 There is hard contradictory evidence to the claims of that DoE article.

Is there a distinction between the batteries existing vs. being in mass production? A lot of the difficulty comes from scaling production processes.

You figure there are cost issues related to lack of mass production. But ultimately, the chemistry is there and you can could have build something in the late 2000s or early 2010s at those higher energy densities. Certainly, any graph that goes right through 2017 and not mention these advances from 2009 would be nonsensical. It is ignoring 8+ years of preexisting technology.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#75

Post by _hypx »

function_seven wrote: post #64
_hypx wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not "cheap," zero and sometimes even negatively priced. The problem is that there is no way of utilizing that electricity. It is excess electricity generated by unpredictable renewable energy. You might as well use that free and useless electricity to make something actually useful.

> You might as well use that free and useless electricity to make something actually useful. Like charge a battery? A battery located anywhere on the grid? Why add more complexity by electrolyzing water, storing the resultant hydrogen, building a vast distribution network to physically move that hydrogen, and keep vehicles dependent on a single form of chemical energy storage? With an EV, my car can charge off the ex…

You do not have an infinite quantity of batteries, nor are they particularly good at storing energy for long periods of time.

In reality, electrolyzers and fuel cells are electrochemical systems. There is no more complexity in making hydrogen than it is to charge batteries.

This argument is pretty ridiculous. You are demanding we be dependent on finite battery supplies rather than practically infinite water. You can easily use grid energy and make hydrogen at home or anywhere to make hydrogen too. And FYI, a fuel cell car is an EV.

Your position is totally misinformed. The fundamental argument in favor of hydrogen cars is that they are EVs that are cheaper, lighter, simpler, less dependent on rare resources, and can refuel much faster than BEVs. Critics have effectively inverting reality on some of these points, or somehow deluded themselves in thinking they're still fighting ICE cars. In reality, you are attacking alternative forms of EVs.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#76

Post by ffhhttt »

_hypx wrote: post #49
alphager wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The production and storage of hydrogen is expensive, had the downside of requiring a large tank in the car and is less efficient than just using a battery.

The cost will drop to nearly zero, just like the rest of renewable energy production. Tanks are cheaper, smaller and lighter than li-ion batteries. Fuel cell cars are also EVs, just like BEVs. The "efficiency problem" is greatly exaggerated.

> The cost will drop to nearly zero, just like the rest of renewable energy production

How and why? I could say the same thing about batteries..

I assume hydrogen might be the best option for lorries and other heavy vehicles but what are its advantages for personal cars?

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#77

Post by _hypx »

theluketaylor wrote: post #73
_hypx wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally everyone has a massive incentive to make green hydrogen work. It is pretty fundamental to industry, manufacturing, agriculture, transportation, etc. There is no path to zero emissions without it. In reality, just a handful of vocal BEV fans oppose this technology on purely personal grounds.

I'm one of those vocal opponents for hydrogen cars, but I do like the technology in general. I'm a huge fan of hydrogen for agriculture, forestry, and other big applications where grid access is really challenging and even small gaps to recharge are unacceptable. Personal transport just doesn't make the list. Hydrogen won't ever make sense for personal transportation since the cost of batteries has come down way too…

That’s absurd. Hydrogen cars will drop to costs comparable to ICE cars. It is a massive reduction in raw material needs. Not to mention the millions of people who need fast public refueling since they do not have access to home chargers.

People are stuck in an innovation trap with BEVs. It is pretty much what Clay Christensen wrote about in his book Innovator’s Dilemma. You cannot just linearly improve a single idea until it surpasses all other ideas, now and forever. Especially one that has many limits as BEVs. It is inevitable that there will be step functions in change, i.e. disruptive changes, coming to the market. Forward thinking companies will plan for that inevitability, not pretend BEVs are the final destination of personal transportation.

The world has already squandered billions of dollars on every kind of green technology. That could easily imply BEVs themselves. It is the biggest of double standards to not insist on hydrogen subsidies. If you truly oppose the idea, then oppose all subsidies for all green energy. If not, then accept hydrogen subsidies as a good idea.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#78

Post by ffhhttt »

_hypx wrote: post #46
jqpabc123 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are currently over 150000 public charging points available all across the USA. And there are no technological issues to prevent more from being installed. At some point, more capacity will be needed but again --- no technological issues to prevent this. Last time I looked there were less than 60 hydrogen refueling stations --- "pilot" projects in California put in place with government funding. I rest my case.…

You will need many millions of them, and enough generating capacity to power then all. That is many years away. Likely decades. There's also no technological issue preventing the expansion of hydrogen stations. It's also worth noting that this directly replaces the gas station, both in number and location. This is not nearly as big of a challenge as you might think. Unlike charging stations, which must exist in much…

Hydrogen is also very expensive and can’t really be produced sustainably at scale yet..

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#79

Post by _hypx »

ffhhttt wrote: post #76
_hypx wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost will drop to nearly zero, just like the rest of renewable energy production. Tanks are cheaper, smaller and lighter than li-ion batteries. Fuel cell cars are also EVs, just like BEVs. The "efficiency problem" is greatly exaggerated.

> The cost will drop to nearly zero, just like the rest of renewable energy production How and why? I could say the same thing about batteries.. I assume hydrogen might be the best option for lorries and other heavy vehicles but what are its advantages for personal cars?

Batteries will always been heavy and be dependent on large quantities of mined materials. The advantage of hydrogen is that it is made from water. So the raw materials used to make hydrogen will trend towards zero, similar to what happened with wind and solar.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#80

Post by _hypx »

ffhhttt wrote: post #78
_hypx wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will need many millions of them, and enough generating capacity to power then all. That is many years away. Likely decades. There's also no technological issue preventing the expansion of hydrogen stations. It's also worth noting that this directly replaces the gas station, both in number and location. This is not nearly as big of a challenge as you might think. Unlike charging stations, which must exist in much…

Hydrogen is also very expensive and can’t really be produced sustainably at scale yet..

That’s the same argument said about wind and solar not that long ago. People are repeating history by saying the same thing. In the end, you are making something with just wind, sunlight and water. Since they are practically infinite resources, the cost will trend towards zero.
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