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Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

movingthelimit.com

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Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#71

Post by ffffdd »

searealist wrote: post #51
josh_fyi wrote: post #5

I studied at Harvard and the answer is that they want to pretend to be so smart and talented that they don't need to work. The image is of the effete aristocrat who enjoys life without lifting a finger. Think of George W. Bush: Got into Yale (Harvard too!) because his blue-blood line always did. Mediocre grades. Lots of alcohol and drugs. (Quit that later.) Avoided Vietnam with the cushiest fun job as a fighter pilot…

What percentage of Harvard students would you say got in through family connections vs worked hard? Why do you focus on the former?

More than you think. Each high school, back in my day, have a quota that can get into Ivy League. They can’t accept everyone that is smart other else it will be in the tens of thousands. Every year, there would be 1-2 that go into even though they were borderline. They got in because their family donated a million dollar building. They didn’t even make it a secret. I went to an elite college prep school. The really smart ones I know got in through scholarships to help balance the scales. It’s just business at the end.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#72

Post by atleastoptimal »

complex_exp wrote: post #56
bruce511 wrote: post #20

Some are born with goals, some find their own goals, and some have goals thrust upon them. Being a smart kid can be hard. Parents, teachers and peers see that mythical attribute "potential" and push you in directions to reach it. Get A's in school? Gotta be a doctor or lawyer. (OK, that ages me, today they'd be pushing for programmer.) Graduating college with a degree you never wanted must be depressing for the perso…

> Ivy league students don't get there by themselves. A life-time of adults help you. See, this is what I do not get. I got without excessive effort into a top university in Europe. I never had to be taken care nearly this much. Learned calculus at 14-15 by buying an old book in a used book store. Learned programming at around the same age by reading C++ tutorials and doing programming competitions (ACM style, but eas…

It's way easier to get into elite schools in Europe than top tier American ivies.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#73

Post by trabant00 »

atdt wrote: post #43

A large portion of the student body at every American college is "drowning themselves in pleasure and mindlessness". The simple, naturalistic explanation is that when Harvard students abandon themselves to partying and procrastination, it is for the same reason that students at Boston University or Colorado State do it: i.e., they're young, horny, and on the loose for the first time in life, and their mental circuitr…

Exactly this. There is no need for overthinking things, like in the article.

When I was in college I noticed one group who managed well above all the others. They where in their 30s.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#74

Post by dekatron »

High achievers are often burdened by the weight of expectations, and the pressure to live up to a certain brand name. Their goals and ambition are often not their own, but have been hijacked along the way by people around them and society in general. They don't always realise this themselves, but somewhere along the way they discover that it's easier to let go and find ways to escape the pressure.

Sometimes, the failure that results from this "self-sabotage" can be a good thing. It can lead to the shattering of assumptions [1] about how the world works, allowing people to redefine their self-worth, and letting them be more in tune with their own capabilities and goals without being encumbered by societal expectations.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shattered_assumptions_theory

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#75

Post by Fomite »

ddenisen wrote: post #68

One issue that I didn't see mentioned in the article or any of the comments so far, is that all these kids who got into Ivy league schools saw themselves as overachievers / received lots of praise relative to their peers while in high school. But once you get into a top school, everyone there is like that and you are no longer special, you are just average compared to your peers. You might have been then top student…

I've seen this referred to as "Shooting Star Syndrome"

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#76

Post by Gareth321 »

p-e-w wrote: post #59
searealist wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You honestly believe that people who get into Harvard don't have more self-discipline on average that those who don't?

People who attend institutions considered "elite" have on average been told since early childhood that they are part of the elite. In my experience, such people tend to have less self-discipline and fewer inhibitions than regular folks. That's a natural consequence of knowing that nothing truly bad can ever happen to you, no matter what you do.

While true, the estimated average IQ at Harvard is 142. IQ is highly associated with self-control and discipline.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#77

Post by p-e-w »

Gareth321 wrote: post #76
p-e-w wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who attend institutions considered "elite" have on average been told since early childhood that they are part of the elite. In my experience, such people tend to have less self-discipline and fewer inhibitions than regular folks. That's a natural consequence of knowing that nothing truly bad can ever happen to you, no matter what you do.

While true, the estimated average IQ at Harvard is 142. IQ is highly associated with self-control and discipline.

> IQ is highly associated with self-control and discipline.

I'd like to see a citation for that, especially for the idea that the self-control/discipline associated with high IQs transfers over to non-academic aspects of life, which is what's in question here.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#78

Post by beebeepka »

searealist wrote: post #46
atdt wrote: post #43

A large portion of the student body at every American college is "drowning themselves in pleasure and mindlessness". The simple, naturalistic explanation is that when Harvard students abandon themselves to partying and procrastination, it is for the same reason that students at Boston University or Colorado State do it: i.e., they're young, horny, and on the loose for the first time in life, and their mental circuitr…

You honestly believe that people who get into Harvard don't have more self-discipline on average that those who don't?

This has to be sarcasm

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#79

Post by tnecniv »

hackerlight wrote: post #41

> I noticed some of my friends spent increasing time consuming reality TV, experimenting with drugs, or partying. Isn't that just describing college students everywhere?

It turns out kids at top schools are still just kids. They might have been more successful academically in high school if they’re at an Ivy, but they’re not a different species. They struggle, succeed, and fail like anybody else. Even if you’re a legacy, most legacies aren’t in that super elite tier where you can bumble through life and wind up a CEO or politician. The ones I knew were mostly middle class or upper middle class with parents who were working professionals and were not well-connected enough to get their kid a job they weren’t qualified for, if they could help them get a job at all.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#80

Post by complex_exp »

atleastoptimal wrote: post #72
complex_exp wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ivy league students don't get there by themselves. A life-time of adults help you. See, this is what I do not get. I got without excessive effort into a top university in Europe. I never had to be taken care nearly this much. Learned calculus at 14-15 by buying an old book in a used book store. Learned programming at around the same age by reading C++ tutorials and doing programming competitions (ACM style, but eas…

It's way easier to get into elite schools in Europe than top tier American ivies.

That may be it, under-supply of schools. What's required there besides perfect, or near perfect SAT scores?

Also, I've always wondered why so few Americans decide to study in Europe. I understand some might not be able to afford the remote study, but this doesn't explain everything. Language is not a problem, every top university offers all, or almost all master's level courses also in English.

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