Fun fact: In some statistics on the safety of different forms of electricity generation, the largest dam failure [1] is left out, which brings hydropower down to same level of safety as nuclear, wind and solar. Our World in Data is an honest source, and reports both values [2]. If you see hydro reported as safe as nuclear, solar and wind (for example in [3]), then they excluded the largest accident. If hydro is 2 ord…
Interesting. Is there a rationale for excluding it?
What if California's dams fail?
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Re: What if California's dams fail?
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
Shouldn’t that imply that if your project can have such accidents then it shouldn’t be built? Why are we allowing some entity to profit from the upside and lumber us all with the downside costs?
Llc stands for limited liability company. Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. Thw method to remove limit unlimited liability is at the core of our economical system. We are allowing it, because it works remarkably well and makes us richer.
For those who do not recognize it, that’s a quote from The Devil’s Dictionary, written by Ambrose Bierce between 1881 and 1906, published in full in 1911. And yes, that is the full definition given for the word “Corporation”:
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/972.html.images#:~:text=COR...>
Full text of the book is freely available here:
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/972>
Re: What if California's dams fail?
#73Re: What if California's dams fail?
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
The spillway reconstruction was expensive and time-consuming, but at least it didn't fail that time. The issue was a lack of investment in remediation repairs and improvements, and a lack of planning for extreme event flows. In the long term, California is unprepared and fucked in terms of dwindling water supply and damaging storms and forest fires from climate change. That's why I left.
California is probably the most prepared state in the US, by far, for the climate issues coming. The problem is it’s also the most currently affected. Mostly due to historic forestry mismanagement (which they’ve corrected but it takes time to make an impact) and the maliciously incompetent behavior of PG&E. Most of the East Coast is going to be a mess. Same with states near the Gulf. Texas can’t even function now in…
But the reality is much more complex. When Europeans arrived on the West coast, we fundamentally altered the environment. We clearcut the foothills, dried out vast wetlands in the valley, decimated native animal populations, dammed up the rivers, and are now depleting the groundwater. Not to mention climate change.
Is forest management a piece of the puzzle? Sure. But how do we even know what the proper approach is? The current situation is not the same as it was 300 years ago, and the same methods aren't necessarily feasible or effective. Forest thinning and well managed control burns are a good start, but I don't believe they're going to solve the wildfire issue on their own, even over a period of several decades.
Re: What if California's dams fail?
#75Fun fact: In some statistics on the safety of different forms of electricity generation, the largest dam failure [1] is left out, which brings hydropower down to same level of safety as nuclear, wind and solar. Our World in Data is an honest source, and reports both values [2]. If you see hydro reported as safe as nuclear, solar and wind (for example in [3]), then they excluded the largest accident. If hydro is 2 ord…
Interesting. Is there a rationale for excluding it?
It was an extreme outlier amongst even major dam failures, and most of the contributing factors are at best distantly related to the technology itself, whilst common to any large and high-risk technical endeavour.
Repeating what I've written before:
[T]he failures largely accrued from institutional hubris, engineering insufficiency, lack of relevant domain knowledge (often deliberate ignorance or denial, see especially Vajont, also St. Francis), poor overall management, lack of disaster preparation, drilling, or readiness, limited resurces or capabilities (especially in developing countries), communications breakdown (see Banqiao's comms loss), and inadequate response in light of imminent or present threat.
None of these are domain-specific to hydraulic civil engineering or absent from nuclear engineering projects.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20020553>
And:
The specific failings at Banqiao were virtually all managerial and political, and not technical: poor engineering, inadequate safety provisions, underestimated environmental and operational risks, poor contingency planning, unforeseen perfect storm (literally), severed communications, insufficient warnings, no community disaster preparation, inadequate rescue and recovery. None of these failures are specific to hydro, all apply to nuclear power, and as non-engineering problems there is no technical fix that makes them go away.
In Banqiao, about 25,000 people died in the immediate inundation. Another 150,000 died in the following weeks of starvation and disease. There's no great mystery as to how such deaths are avoided: floodwaters are mitigated by high ground and evacuation centres; starvation and disease by food, water, and medical stocks; and rescue & recovery by trained teams and equipment. Reestablishment of communications, transport, and utilities is critical. These are all basic mitigations and are common to a wide range of foreseeable incidents.
China at the time was desperately poor, politically dysfunctional, institutionally corrupt and inept, and gambled hugely on risk and lost. Other major hydro disasters tend to share these traits.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24327114>
The risks from Banqiao were short-term (acute), though profound. They could have been mitigated by planning, preparation, warnings, evacuation, and response. China at the time lacked the safety and civil defence maturity and mindsets, the political will, the engineering culture, and simply the capacity to respond appropriately given the magnitude of the disaster. The deaths were avoidable, and similar threats, say the 2017 Oroville Dam spillway failure. The engineering failure resulted in costs, but no loss of life, nor any significant damage to property other than the dam itself.
The U.S. still does see occasional dam failures, as with the Edenville and Sanford Dam failures of 19 May 2020. Here again poor engineering, construction, and operation created the risk, though again, preparedness and response prevented deaths, though in this case there was significant property damage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edenville_Dam>
Today, Chernobyl and Fukushima are exclusion zones, and they will be for centuries at a minimum. The reactor cores themselves, for tens of thousands of years. This is far longer than the companies, countries, cultures, and even languages extant at the time of the disasters --- our capacity to address risks and management at this scale is utterly nonexistent. Banqiao today is home to 17 million people who face no ongoing concerns from the incident.
Nuclear power also becomes a threat-multiplier: Chernobyl (and the neighbouring ZaporizhzhiaNuclear Power Station, which had been operating normally prior to Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine) have both proved militarily-significant points of leverage in the conflict, with potential impacts extending well beyond the immediate region and time. Yes, dams have also played that role, but the ultimate impacts there are localised in both space and time, as well as highly tangible in ways that radiation threats are not.
Dam failures are short-lasting disasters, occurring over hours, days, or perhaps weeks. Relative to total installations --- tens if not hundreds of thousands worldwide --- major incidents are relatively rare.
Nuclear failures are long-lasting disasters, occurring over decades, centuries, and perhaps millennia. With fewer than 400 nuclear power plants worldwide, we've seen numerous catastrophic failures as well as far more close calls.
This is a topic I've discussed over 30 times on HN, and this comment draws heavily on previous discussion. Earlier instances: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...>