Live data from Hacker News

The Tyranny of Structurelessness (1970)

jofreeman.com

71–75 of 75 posts

Re: The Tyranny of Structurelessness (1970)

#71
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moreover it is arguably the converse - organisations with a deep heirarchy and a lack of operational structure - that are most prone to predators. Individuals with narcissistic or sociopathic tendencies are attracted to positions where they wield power over others but have little to no accountability. This is why it's so important for misdeeds to be brought to light and justice. An example is the UK political system,…

Could you give examples beyond UK politics?

Well, the UK is actually not too bad on a global scale. Demagogues can cause some serious damage - Thatcher, Blair, Boris, Farage... - but are eventually discarded when they become irrelevant or their promised land fails to materialise.

Countries without a robust consensus-based governing process and an established process for removing someone from power - and that's most of them - are susceptible to strongman politics. Think Putin, Jinping, Erdogan, Bolsonaro, Saddam, Gaddafi, Tito, Kagame, Mugabe, Hitler, Mussolini, etc...

Outside of politics, wealth and celebrity are the obvious paths to unaccountable power. Jeffrey Epstein is an example of how a predator can get away with despicable behaviour without comeuppance for decades. Rupert Murdoch has frequently been at the centre of various scandals and serious controversies, and seems to have escaped pretty much unscathed by treating it as all part of the business.

The venture capital environment in silicon valley seems to have some of the hallmarks; we can see people like Holmes or Bankman-Fried trying to exploit the system to gain power.

Academia also springs to mind. It's surprisingly easy to get into powerful positions with very little skill/knowledge besides networking. I believe there's a real issue with toxic, abusive PhD supervisors in the UK and potentially the US, which is a classic consequence of heirarchies with little accountability.

Re: The Tyranny of Structurelessness (1970)

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great to hear!! I'm also always on the hunt for books similar to this - a weird mix of psychoanalysis, sociology, deep thought - so happy to hear your recommendations as well!!

Well my friend: Everything (really) by Erving Goffman. A beautiful synthesis is [1] which I might recommend over the original material (sacrilege!) if you were only going to read one thing. We (as Western Civilization, maybe) have still (imo) not come to terms with the bounty that is William James. I had negligible interest in religion, but if you're into the weird mix of psychoanalysis, sociology, and deep thought,…

Thank you so much!!!!! I had The Varieties of Religious Experiences on my to-read-list forever but never got to it; I had never even heard of those other authors. Thank you so much!

Another rec: Mark Fisher's Capitalist Realism, on how we can't imagine alternatives to capitalism any more.

Byung-Chul Han's Psychopolitics, on how modern neoliberalism turned us into self-exploiters. There's no 'upper class' suppressing the 'lower classes' anymore, we've moved to self-exploit, to push ourselves as our own horrible boss, without a structure to rebel against, with no chance of escape.

Re: The Tyranny of Structurelessness (1970)

#73
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you give examples beyond UK politics?

Well, the UK is actually not too bad on a global scale. Demagogues can cause some serious damage - Thatcher, Blair, Boris, Farage... - but are eventually discarded when they become irrelevant or their promised land fails to materialise. Countries without a robust consensus-based governing process and an established process for removing someone from power - and that's most of them - are susceptible to strongman politi…

Interesting, thanks!

Re: The Tyranny of Structurelessness (1970)

#74

After reading this essay I became convinced several different government institutions realized they could tank any grassroots movement by inserting a crazy and letting it go from there. This was of course proven to be the case with the Black Panthers where most of the violent agitators turned out to be FBI agents. This fundamentally changed my view on flat organizations, realizing they were vulnerable to predators wi…

I read an article on exactly that premise -- how to destroy a group by making sure that it accomplished nothing -- and your strategy was implicit in there. I tried to link it but I can't -- oh wait, it's part of a CIA field manual [1]. Simple but containing deep wisdom. [1] https://www.openculture.com/2022/01/read-the-cias-simple-sab...

There's the notion of "vetocracy", which has been proposed by Francis Fukiyama, in an interview with Ezra Klein (see: "Francis Fukuyama: America is in 'one of the most severe political crises I have experienced'" https://www.vox.com/2016/10/26/13352946/francis-fukuyama-ezr...>.

Power structures tend to form either where a single individual can bring things about, or where they can prevent their occurrence.

In a consensus organisation (either intentionally so or de facto), the individual or faction which can prevent business from transacting has effective control. If there are multiple such entities, what results is gridlock. This is unfortunately one potential failure mode of democratic or representational government.

Sabotage is one means of accomplishing that goal.

Re: The Tyranny of Structurelessness (1970)

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well my friend: Everything (really) by Erving Goffman. A beautiful synthesis is [1] which I might recommend over the original material (sacrilege!) if you were only going to read one thing. We (as Western Civilization, maybe) have still (imo) not come to terms with the bounty that is William James. I had negligible interest in religion, but if you're into the weird mix of psychoanalysis, sociology, and deep thought,…

Thank you so much!!!!! I had The Varieties of Religious Experiences on my to-read-list forever but never got to it; I had never even heard of those other authors. Thank you so much! Another rec: Mark Fisher's Capitalist Realism, on how we can't imagine alternatives to capitalism any more. Byung-Chul Han's Psychopolitics, on how modern neoliberalism turned us into self-exploiters. There's no 'upper class' suppressing…

You're very welcome. I'm jealous of you, having James to look forward to!
Post reply on HN