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Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

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Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#71

Post by griffinkelly »

Barrin92 wrote: post #17

I was one of the last few to go through conscription and service in Germany before it was a abolished I hope it does come back. (including of course the alternative civil service) For one it instills in young people a sense of duty and direction and also simply physical fitness which many struggle with these days, in Germany an important aspect was always to have civilian supervision in the military ('citizen in unif…

I think the biggest benefit of more people serving is that the general public realizes that war is a terrible thing and should be done as a last resort. I think it also gives a better understanding of the ways governments use power projection and it's an unnecessary evil, particularly becoming relevant again with Russia. As we see fewer and fewer people serving I believe many of our political leaders will become less empathetic to that understanding. As a reservist in the US, in the many conversations I've had with fellow tech coworkers, there's usually a general lack of knowledge and understanding on the military as few have any direct relatives in the armed services.

As a side note in terms of fitness, in the US, the number eligible people is rather low due to the number of constrains the US military places on fitness, weight, tattoos, mental health etc. The number of people that could actually fight it everyone were called up that's within the age bracket is somewhere in the teens in terms of percentage. Unsure where that stands in Europe, but it would be a large roadbump if the draft were to be reimplemented.

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#72

Post by zabzonk »

wongarsu wrote: post #48
zabzonk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the UK, with one of the more powerful militaries, is not part of the EU. many EU members and the UK are part of NATO which performs much the same job that an EU force would.

NATO armed forces would be under the command of the Supreme Allied Commander Europe, who by pure coincidence happens to always be an American. Right below him is the Deputy Supreme Allied Commander Europe, who has been British in 22/30 cases. If the EU wants to have an army that serves their interests, I would consider it prudent to have the command of that army be in EU hands, instead of just handing their soldiers…

but who would this EU force fight that NATO wouldn't?

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#73

Post by jillesvangurp »

TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #13
andsoitis wrote: post #2

> The United Kingdom, the United States and Canada have had exclusively professional armies for 50 years or more. One idea would be for the EU, instead of individual member states, to stand up a professional army. Then you don't have to force people and it also just might bind European countries more closely together.

European army might be happening in the future, but entity protesting the European army the most will be USA diplomacy. On one hand US armed forces would like for Europe to be self sufficient so they can concentrate on China. On the other hand US diplomacy would lost leverage on Europe + getting another geopolitical competitor (despite being ideologically aligned with USA) isn't something what USA is looking for.

There are already some extensive collaborations. For example, Dutch divisions now report to German command. And the French and German armies coordinate on a lot of things and we're all NATO members of course.

There are some calls for bringing back military service in some countries. I'm not sure that's needed or a good idea. The reason most European armies are not in great shape is not a lack of people but years of budget cuts and mismanagement. That would be because they don't actually do a whole lot of fighting normally. They defend without ever being attacked and there is the odd mission abroad where some countries send maybe thousands of troops at best. I don't see that change any time soon. And that's a good thing. I count myself lucky to not have been exposed to major wars close to where I live. And I live in the middle of Berlin. Buildings here still have scars from WW II. At least the few that survived that.

The most credible threat on our eastern border was the Russian army. And courtesy of their own ineptness, they seem to be hard at work reducing that threat by expending most of their officers and usable equipment in the Ukraine. It doesn't look like they are recovering soon.

Also, there is the point of this being a remarkably old school conflict. The Russians tactics have barely evolved since the 1940s. They seem unable to use their airforce effectively, their navy is not a factor either. Mostly they are just launching wave after wave of cannon fodder at their enemies. Brutal and it's not working great for them judging from the recent news.

Most modern conflicts are very different. Relatively poorly trained conscripts don't add a lot of value in such conflicts. Europe needs lots of rockets, drones, etc. Keep the fight far away from its borders.

A bigger risk would be an armed uprise within our borders. For that reason getting a lot of small countries excited about building out their armies is not a great idea. I'm old enough to remember the Bosnian war and I've visited Mostar a few years ago. Political populism and armies are not a great mix. A lot of blood got spilled in Europe that proves that.

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#74

Post by thfuran »

andsoitis wrote: post #69
thfuran wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland most certainly is not going to start making military service compulsory.

> Switzerland most certainly is not going to start making military service compulsory. How does that square with what I read on https://www.ch.ch/en/safety-and-justice/military-service-and... Every Swiss man is required to serve in the military or in the alternative civilian service. In most cases, the military service obligation applies from age 18 to 30.

So how could they possibly start doing it now? Military service is already a cultural expectation and their military is already structured around it because they've been doing it for over a century.

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#75

Post by somenameforme »

jwilk wrote: post #8
sjaak wrote: post #6

Most of Western Europe is unwilling to fight for their country https://preview.redd.it/of-europeans-who-would-fight-for-the...

What's the source of this data?

Gallup 2014 survey: https://www.gallup-international.bg/en/33483/win-gallup-inte...

There's a clear table linked at the bottom.

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#76

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

thfuran wrote: post #60
082349872349872 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> anything further west just isn't going to happen. Are you somehow not counting Austria, Greece, and Switzerland as European? [pedantic edit: the parent, to my interpretation, does not just argue that "introducing conscription would be a poor idea" but that "conscription is a poor idea" (whether one already has it or not); maybe it would be better off refined to the former?]

Switzerland most certainly is not going to start making military service compulsory.

Uhhhmmmm.

"Switzerland has mandatory military service in the Swiss Army for all able-bodied male citizens, who are conscripted when they reach the age of majority, though women may volunteer for any position. Conscripts make up the majority of the manpower in the Swiss Armed Forces."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Switzerland

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#78

Post by crote »

082349872349872 wrote: post #44
crote wrote: post #23

It simply doesn't make any sense for most European countries. First of all, there is no viable way to actually use conscripts. Sending them overseas to die over a patch of dirt is a really bad move, as the Vietnam war has shown. Europe doesn't really want to invade anyone, so you're left with defense. So who's going to invade? The only foe even worth considering is Russia - and NATO's combined professional armies are…

> anything further west just isn't going to happen. Are you somehow not counting Austria, Greece, and Switzerland as European? [pedantic edit: the parent, to my interpretation, does not just argue that "introducing conscription would be a poor idea" but that "conscription is a poor idea" (whether one already has it or not); maybe it would be better off refined to the former?]

Who's going to attack them?

Besides, they already have military service due to historical reasons. They don't have to reintroduce it.

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#79

Post by danwee »

It's the year 2023, and the human race cannot simply just talk to fix issues. Incredible.

To kill (or hurt) other human beings to protect "your" land or "your" loved ones baffles me. Yes, I love my loved ones (wow) but that doesn't mean I'm willing to kill people who are 99.99999% similar to my loved ones just because the politicians that manage the countries we happen to live in decide so.

We think that because we can send probes the the outer space or because we can do calculus we are so intelligent. We are still just monkeys who get mad when other monkeys say/do something to us that we don't like.

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#80

Post by didgeoridoo »

andsoitis wrote: post #69
thfuran wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland most certainly is not going to start making military service compulsory.

> Switzerland most certainly is not going to start making military service compulsory. How does that square with what I read on https://www.ch.ch/en/safety-and-justice/military-service-and... Every Swiss man is required to serve in the military or in the alternative civilian service. In most cases, the military service obligation applies from age 18 to 30.

I think GP was being facetious? Switzerland is very well-known for its service obligation…
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