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Visual Studio '11' Announced

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Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#71
post #51
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tools -> Options -> Documents Check "Insert documents to the right of existing tabs".

But why is it the default? Why not match the existing tab behavior of every web browser?

I like it that way. It allows me to think of the tabs like a stack. In any case, you can easily change the default, it's not like you use a new machine every week that needs to be configured again.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#72
By removing all the borders/bars, and other useful grouping elements, they've made the application feel cluttered -- too many unrelated things share the same z-index. For example, the pinned panel titles, side panel buttons, inactive tabs, and toolbars are all on the same background. Considering how unrelated these things are in comparison to each other, I don't think they should share this same "zone".

I'm not saying a design like that can't be done, but the only way I can think of making it work would involve much better use of the grid system and much better spacing than what they have in these pictures. Considering how limited they are for space though, I think they were just better off with the 2010 look.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#73

Developers beware: Visual C++ 11 cannot compile executables that work on Windows XP at all: https://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/... C++ devs may want to skip this release and just go for Visual C++ 12 when it's out, since by then hopefully XP will be ignorable.

I'm afraid XP won't be ignorable for another 3 or 4 years at least.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#74

Interesting thing about VS and Xcode is that they do not really try to compete with somebody or fight for attention. Both Windows and Mac/iOS developers would use less useful tools if they still let them make products for the popular platforms. JetBrains, Borland and others are fighting for attention and developers' love. They must try really-really hard to make people choose an alternative to the official tools. So…

XCode 4 may have been designed but it wasn't designed well. It has no mixed source/disassembly views. Hovering over the debug icons say that pressing control and clicking "step into" will step a single instruction. But this isn't a sticky setting, so if I press control and click "step into" twice, the first time will step an instruction and the second will perform a source line step.

It also crashes. A lot.

When doing iOS development I find myself switching between GDB and LLDB regularly, as LLDB gives some great context information but it crashes and takes out all of Xcode on a fairly regular basis.

Xcode is terrible. It's really quite sad that a company that prides itself as much as Apple does on its user experience is able to let something so unusable out its doors. Xcode 3 may have been messy but it was many times more usable because it was many times more stable than Xcode 4. I don't really care how pretty my tool interfaces are but rather how well they work.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#75
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's great, except the test is not taking into account my personal preference . I don't use the icons very much to do things - I mostly use keyboard shortcuts. Now, I'm going to be stuck looking at that garbage all day. Furthermore...76 participants? That doesn't prove anything.

Neither does your singular data point.

How about 200+ comments on the actual article mirroring my exact sentiment?

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#76

Developers beware: Visual C++ 11 cannot compile executables that work on Windows XP at all: https://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/... C++ devs may want to skip this release and just go for Visual C++ 12 when it's out, since by then hopefully XP will be ignorable.

I'm afraid XP won't be ignorable for another 3 or 4 years at least.

According to: http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-ww-monthly-201101-201201 XP dropped 14% in the last year, and is now on 34%. So a really dumb calculation says about 2 and a half years if that keeps up, but I guess there will be a longer tail of die-hard users... hard to tell, since it's pretty unprecedented for a particular version of a major OS to be so popular for so long.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#77
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of us grognards would argue that if you're having trouble finding buttons, they really shouldn't be on the screen at all. Seriously, why must IDEs look like this? Why is there screen space dedicated to documentation when I'm not reading docs? Why are there multiple horizontal bars at both the top and bottom of the full-screen display when the single most important activity in the app is scanning very long text f…

Probably to help beginners get going. You can hide all toolbars/status bars etc. if you wish.

As someone who's an IDE "beginner" (I usually code in Vim, recently started using IDEA) in my opinion there's nothing at all about this that "helps beginners get going". Instead of having a useful toolbar with a few of the most common operations on it I have a double or triple stacked bar with dozens of icons, panels coming from every side, etc.

It's basically impossible to find even the easiest of IDE functions in that mess. One of the purported advantages of GUIs is the discoverability of the interface. When I have to visually search through hundreds of UI elements to find what I need, that is all lost.

The monolithic IDE concept really needs a fresh breath of air. I do like the fact that they come with a lot of integrated tools for a programming environment, but they shouldn't clutter the UI because of it. Ideally I think an IDE would start off looking mostly like a text editor and give you clearly delineated views of different activities once you need them.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have clarified my point in another comment already. It's not about who's better. It's about who's trying to experiment and rethink things. In developer tools team of the top-10 tech company you have a great combo: best hard-core engineers on the planet + little need to maintain cruft and worry about competition. Why not experiment and try to be better at what you do? Xcode 4 is this radical attempt to improve old p…

> Why not experiment and try to be better at what you do? Herein lies the problem. The term "better" is most definitely subjective. Not to pic on Xcode, but this is a prime example of focusing too much on making a consumer appliance rather than a professional tool. Like I said: I don't want iTunes, I want a kick-ass IDE. I'm in the middle of a project that has, quite literally, thousands of assets to manage (images,…

The key was "try". Xcode is far from being focused on "consumers" and they are trying hard to make a kick-ass IDE. It could be a different definition of "kick-ass" from yours, that's fine.

Anyway, I emphasize this again: it's not a question if the actual result is better or worse, it's a complex question because there are thousands of people to evaluate it. The question is why not to experiment more where you have more liberty to do so. It's hard to experiment with a toolbar in Excel because millions of non-computer-geek users are used to certain operations and want to preserve their productivity. But it's not hard to throw away toolbar in an IDE because nobody will pay you less because of it. (Especially if you are actually trying to do your best.)

Metro after Windows is that kind of experiment (but way more risky and rewarding, of course). But Visual Studio is not inspiring at all after all these years.

PS. For that matter, Xcode 4 is not radical enough too. We are still typing a lot of boring cruft (even with ever-smarter autocompletion). But it's a huge difference with Xcode 3 and other IDEs out there.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#79
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VS2010 is just damn slow and falls over on me at least 2-3 times a day which is not acceptable. Non-aggressive suggestion: think you've got something screwy with your system, I've had VS Fall over on my 2-3 times in the last several years of heavy use. It doesn't have to be that unstable. Also, with an SSD and enough RAM, I don't feel like I'm ever waiting on VS anymore.

I'd second that. In the past five years (or at least since VS 2008), I can remember VS crashing on me maybe half a dozen times. That's with spending most of my time working on pretty large multi language projects. For context, I don't use any extensions other than (sometimes) ReSharper and Tortoise svn/git/hg.

Mine doesn't crash on Web projects, but can't work for a couple of hours on a Windows Phone 7 project without it going boom.

I think most of it works fine and dandy, but some parts can be quite sensitive.

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