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Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

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Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#71
post #64

I disagree that it's a fundamental right. Over most of history privacy has been rare for most people, with the provisio that if you really wanted a private conversation you could have one in the middle of an open field in daylight with a reasonable expectation that your conversation would not be compromised. These days there can be no such expectation, and we need to separate out discussion of day-to-day privacy from…

Define "fundamental right".

Rights are an American way of saying that something is desirable and that one is morally justified in using violence to achieve it. They use this terminology for reasons of history. There is no such concrete object of course, just translate into your own world view.

BTW, 'Define "X"' sounds rather childish, whoever says it.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#72
The best means of preserving privacy online is encryption and to not send to or store data in a server. Of course the challenge there is a dramatic economic shift in revenue generation for many software companies that imposes a competing interest.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#73
post #8

Well I dare say, before civilization, when people lived in small tribes, there was no privacy in your tribe. But now, comparing to back then, all other "tribes" can see what you are doing.

Recently I've favored Privacy as a Right. Seeing what someone is doing is only part of it, imo. What about the thoughts in your head? Is it a privacy issue to try to extract your thoughts? Yes. There is a moral right to privacy. It's part of what makes us humans and promotes humankind, as we know it.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#74
Everytime I read threads like this I get very concerned. It's like, even here, people don't understand the core problem. Or are intentionally trying to shift the blame away from big tech.

Of course the state spies on you. After Edward Snowden everyone should know that. And thats a big problem because the state is the one actor that should fight to protect you from surveillance. But let's not claim that big tech is not the motor of the machine that is state sanctioned surveillance. Google allowed the US to read your e-mails. A yahoo software was responsible to access your webcam from the outside. NSO sold Pegasus to state actors.

That sounds bad enough. But if these companies would care about their users they would stop this from happening. Right? Of course these companies will tell you that they need your information to provide you with the best service. In reality they want to collect the biggest value as possible from you.

In the past you would just pay for a service and the service would provide a service. If the company wanted to extract more value from their users they would raise the prices. But today is different. It is no longer just a transaction between you and a company. It is also a transaction between the company and a third actor who is interested on spying on you.

The motivation changes. It is no longer about protecting you country or whatever. It is about money. And companies want to make money. And if companies see a legal opportunity to make more money they will take it. They will sell as much of your data as possible.

Now you will tell me that I should just stop using these services. But that's not so easy. Network effects are real. If they aren't real for you? Great. But other people have friends outside of tech circles. Now if you want to have a social life you need WhatsApp or other services. This is an even bigger problem in developing countries that are literally dependent on these "free" services.

Normal people wont buy a homeserver, self host a matrix instance and convert literally everyone in their friend group to element. They will go for the cheaper solution and just download WhatsApp. But they don't know that they are paying for this service with their data. E2EE? Yeah right, your Messages can only be read by me, you and Facebook.

This is why we are in dire need of anchoring privacy into law. People will go for the cheaper option. But if you are in need of using a service it should not come with strings attached. And if your service is only sustainable by selling the private correspondence of people it deserves to die. There is plenty of great OSS that just doesn't have the network effects of proprietary ones.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#75

I disagree that it's a fundamental right. Over most of history privacy has been rare for most people, with the provisio that if you really wanted a private conversation you could have one in the middle of an open field in daylight with a reasonable expectation that your conversation would not be compromised. These days there can be no such expectation, and we need to separate out discussion of day-to-day privacy from…

> I disagree that it's a fundamental right That was my first thought - like, it would great if everybody agreed that it was a fundamental right, but other than as an empty political talking point, I'm not familiar with any government official in all of recorded history who's ever behaved as if they thought so. It's definitely not codified in any law I've ever seen.

All fundamental human rights are actually progressive political positions if you really want to examine them. For anything we accept as a "right", there was a time and place where people would emphatically argue it was not a right.

Human rights are not intrinsic to human beings: they're fundamental to our civilization. I for one look forward to the expansion of fundamental human rights.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#76
post #8

Well I dare say, before civilization, when people lived in small tribes, there was no privacy in your tribe. But now, comparing to back then, all other "tribes" can see what you are doing.

On the contrary, you could go always off on your own and use any tools you could get your hands on to do private acts, think private thoughts (including writing/drawing them out physically), and make private art. That is increasingly difficult in a world where every tool you can get your hands on is designed to spy on you as a primary function.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#77

In the discussion of losing privacy we focus on the social freedoms lost as a result of loss of privacy. I agree with all of those arguments but missing from these discussions are the economic freedoms we might lose. People like to portray their least favorite countries as being engaged in corporate espionage in other developed countries, but what stops your favorite big corp from stealing what you create? Going forw…

Many people have been conditioned to think they are unimportant and these companies would not waste time looking at their stuff. They may not understand the power of AI which can constantly scan, remember, and process the information of many people to provide distilled information and opportunities to its master. We are also easily manipulated into spending, speaking, and voting which this knowledge and processing power greatly improves. If you do not think you are easily manipulated, you are probably the most easily manipulated.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#78

I disagree that it's a fundamental right. Over most of history privacy has been rare for most people, with the provisio that if you really wanted a private conversation you could have one in the middle of an open field in daylight with a reasonable expectation that your conversation would not be compromised. These days there can be no such expectation, and we need to separate out discussion of day-to-day privacy from…

One of our most fundamental rights that wasn't written into any country's constitution that I know of. And in the US, privacy was basically built around the concerns of celebrities and businessmen.

Privacy for the general public has always been considered a danger, and wasn't even a concern for the courts until technological advances removed any limits on how much even uninteresting people can be surveilled, and how easily massive amounts of that data can be kept and algorithmically searched through. But even in the old days, the government would find time to go through your mail to see if you were getting any information about birth control, then arrest you for it.

I wonder how people can watch old spy movies now, where spies had to smuggle money to other spies, they communicated with tiny strips of microfilm surreptitiously dropped into trashcans, etc., if they think that in the past, people could communicate freely with each other and transfer money willy-nilly? The battle that snoops are involved in now is the same as always, except with extremely overpowered tools and access. This access will not be limited, and these tools will not be dropped, because these tools can be turned on any politician who seriously wants to do that.

The way they see it is the same way they saw the made-up "missile gap." They look at China, and its government powers over civil liberties, and see it as an arms race that they're losing. If you're anti-surveillance, they see you as holding back the West in comparison, and wonder why you would want the bad guys to have access to tools that the good guys don't have. So they not only want more surveillance, they want to use it to track the people who are against more surveillance.

This is another self-serving narrative that motivates western elites to exaggerate the capabilities and immorality of US enemies, just like the missile gap was.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#79
post #9

As an individual, I want privacy of course. But is privacy really important to mankind? If we look at mankind as an organism, the organism can function better if each part knows what the other part is doing. If the left hand knows what the right hand does. Isn't it the same with mankind? Maybe a society is more efficient without privacy. And more efficiency of the society would benefit its members.

Privacy is important because of the power dynamic in society. If information were truly free and open, and we all had the same access to all private information and aggregation/analysis, maybe that kind of world would be best. But we don't, so privacy is a form of self-defense. Data gatherers are data hoarders and data abusers.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#80
I used to engage with this topic a lot and still orient my life around minimizing the scope of digital access to my life. The outcomes are great - I read books more often, and I’m less on my phone bc my phone is largely bricked outside of Signal.

That said, our laws represent our values. We have a complete lack of tangible privacy laws and any ability to enforce them, and that doesn’t seem to be changing despite decades of these calls. GDPR delete requests are a joke because of the 17 marketing excel sheets with user exports floating around and forgotten in downloads folder that every tech company with user data has in some form.

Western culture, in its current form, doesn’t value privacy. It’s nuking privacy bc of tech-enabled capitalism and a decentralized mess of efforts to hit OKRs, love of social media by users, making that next VC raise, do that compliance check on user origin.

Everything about tech can’t function without that stream of user data. Every company is about tech now. Every company can’t function in its current profit mode without user data.

I’ve benefited greatly from capitalism, so I don’t get too bent out of shape. But you have to spend just one quarter with access to user-facing logs to know privacy is a lost cause, unless there is a significant reevaluation of tech regulations, and then you’d need the actual hammer-drop EPA in new 1970z style regulations. I don’t think we’ll get it.

So my conclusion is to protect yourself as able and otherwise ride the wave into what’s next.

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