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The Never Married, a New Normal

psychologytoday.com

71–80 of 450 posts

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#71
post #23

Marriage is a tough proposition in the west these days. The cost of childcare has never been higher, both in terms of dollars and opportunity cost, not to mention housing. Of course there are other benefits to getting married, but without the goal of family feeling attainable to many, a major driver for marriage is gone.

Why is marriage is a prerequisite to children? As far as I can tell, being unmarried or even single doesn’t prevent pregnancy.

Human mating rituals can get way more elaborate than any other animal's.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#72
post #42

I'm guessing this is more to do with declining birth rates than anything else. Much of the value of marriage is to enhance the child's claim to both parents' wealth and income. If married, it's much harder for one partner to tap out of parenting, in financial terms

"If married, it's much harder for one partner to tap out of parenting, in financial terms"

Child support can be determined independently from being married. Whether one is married or not has no bearing on one's financial obligations to children, to my knowledge.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#73
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It truly baffles me how alimony is even legal today. Based on how alimony is treated, marriage is essentially indentured servitude. The US has no guaranteed parental leave. If you have a kid and want one parent to spend any significant time with that kid, someone is sacrificing their career advancement. This usually hits women harder. If you want to see the end of alimony, you’d need to make it easier to choose to…

This seems very biased to me since it's often that both parents make career sacrifices, not just one. Even if we accept what you're saying, that still doesn't address why this should be legal. You even say "want", so it is a choice. There's absolutely no reason that an able-bodied person of sound mind can't support themself. The state forcing another person to pay for that person's higher standard of living is absurd…

> This seems very biased to me since it's often that both parents make career sacrifices, not just one.

With adoption, maybe, but carrying and bearing a child has a life-altering impact on a woman's body. It's not like you can give birth and go back to the office on Monday. It takes months to recover and even after that you likely won't be at full performance like you were before the pregnancy. Common side effects like post partum depression can easily linger for years if not given time and treatment. Quality of life is also quite terrible for the last while before giving birth, not just because of changes in physical size but also the lack of sleep and what a mental impact that could easily be described as mental illness if it wouldn't coincide with pregnancy.

As a man, I seriously don't know how women do it, and how many even do it multiple times.

The notion that two people make equal sacrifices when they have a child is laughable. Of course, in a healthy relationship both parties make sacrifices, but it's impossible to equate the sacrifices they make. Perhaps it's technically possible if two women both decide to give birth from a donor father, one after the other or at the same time, abut that's absurdly rare.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#74
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it has more to do with the decline in religiosity in the US. Why get married? Typically there’s a wedding. That’s a ceremony involving you, your partner, both partners’ family and friends, and a religious and/or civic authority. You’re throwing a big party saying “we are committed to each other”. When you’re very religious, this is required to become partnered and accepted as an adult in the community. When y…

> I'd be interested in a ceremony celebrating a commitment to cohabitation and partnership that sheds the baggage of a wedding and marriage. Especially if it didn't involve renting a venue, 25% mark ups, hurt feelings from non-invited folks, decades of expectation building, and an industrial complex focused on money extraction.

Precisely

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#75
post #23

Marriage is a tough proposition in the west these days. The cost of childcare has never been higher, both in terms of dollars and opportunity cost, not to mention housing. Of course there are other benefits to getting married, but without the goal of family feeling attainable to many, a major driver for marriage is gone.

Why is marriage is a prerequisite to children? As far as I can tell, being unmarried or even single doesn’t prevent pregnancy.

It's not, and I didn't say it was. However, having children is one of the most cited reasons people get married.

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/11/06/why-peo...

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#76
post #72
post #42

I'm guessing this is more to do with declining birth rates than anything else. Much of the value of marriage is to enhance the child's claim to both parents' wealth and income. If married, it's much harder for one partner to tap out of parenting, in financial terms

"If married, it's much harder for one partner to tap out of parenting, in financial terms" Child support can be determined independently from being married. Whether one is married or not has no bearing on one's financial obligations to children, to my knowledge.

I'm not just talking about child support. If married, if you want to leave your wife and kids and go live in the next town and not see them ever, it will likely cost you more if married, than if you are single.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#77
post #41

This is really surprising, but also interesting to hear. I think there’s a lot of societal pressure to both get married and to have children, especially in the south, where I’m from. Thankfully, my family never pushed these on me. I’ve been with my wife for 13 years now, and married for 8. It’s been an awesome experience for us, but I know neither of us considered marrying any of our previous partners. If we hadn’t f…

> I think there’s a lot of societal pressure to both get married and to have children, especially in the south, where I’m from.

I don't know where things stand now, but there was a similar pressure in Appalachia ~15 years ago. If you'd been out of high school more than a couple of years and hadn't gotten married or at minimum found someone you'd intended to marry, people would start asking if you were closeted or something, which seemed crazy to me — how on earth could I possibly find it a good idea to get married before I'd even had a chance to get some clue about how to function as an adult or figure out who I was?

A lot of people succumb to that pressure. I think out of everybody in my class and the classes both before and after me I'm the only one who wasn't at least engaged by age 22.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#78
post #41

This is really surprising, but also interesting to hear. I think there’s a lot of societal pressure to both get married and to have children, especially in the south, where I’m from. Thankfully, my family never pushed these on me. I’ve been with my wife for 13 years now, and married for 8. It’s been an awesome experience for us, but I know neither of us considered marrying any of our previous partners. If we hadn’t f…

> I think there’s a lot of societal pressure to both get married and to have children, especially in the south, where I’m from. I don't know where things stand now, but there was a similar pressure in Appalachia ~15 years ago. If you'd been out of high school more than a couple of years and hadn't gotten married or at minimum found someone you'd intended to marry, people would start asking if you were closeted or som…

If a society didn't find some way to last beyond the lifespan of a human, then it wouldn't be much of a society.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#79
Marriage happens in the heart.

I perceive the big event as the opposite of something healthy. The need for a legal thing is resolved in Canada: if you live together for 1 year, that's basically equivalent to being married.

I have been living with my partner for 13 years (I'm 34), we both work from home so that's some 24 x 365 x 13 hours together. I occasionally ask her to marry me, for fun, and she says yes. At times she says maybe to joke. But really after living together for that long, does that even matter?

So there you go, another reason to never marry

We have two children.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#80
post #76
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If married, it's much harder for one partner to tap out of parenting, in financial terms" Child support can be determined independently from being married. Whether one is married or not has no bearing on one's financial obligations to children, to my knowledge.

I'm not just talking about child support. If married, if you want to leave your wife and kids and go live in the next town and not see them ever, it will likely cost you more if married, than if you are single.

That doesn't have anything to do with tapping out as a parent. The costs are all the same except for divorce and alimony costs, which are separate from someone checking out as a parent.
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