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Ketamine no better than placebo at alleviating depression, unusual trial finds

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Re: Ketamine no better than placebo at alleviating depression, unusual trial finds

#71

Post by LocalH »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #68
LocalH wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The notion that the trip is the therapeutic element seems oddly frightening or threatening to a lot of people. The result of years of "altered state of mind" anti-drug propaganda. There is a significant perception that "altering your state of mind" is immoral (even though we do that every day, all day, and in fact even some foods can "alter your state of mind"). If cannabis could actually cure cancer just by smoking…

'There is a significant perception that "altering your state of mind" is immoral ' This is probably a straw man. The immoral part comes from some percentage of the trippers ending up doing things like climbing naked up power lines to steal the copper for future trips. It's a question of whether society should tolerate the % damage that occurs versus the % high it gives those not participating in the damage.

That's an issue of set and setting, and of proper education. Also, what in the world scenario have you put forth? Who is "climbing naked up power lines to steal the copper for future trips"? I've never heard that one in all the years of propaganda I've heard (like the old canard about someone taking LSD and believing after the trip that they're an orange).

Re: Ketamine no better than placebo at alleviating depression, unusual trial finds

#72

Post by FollowingTheDao »

cypherpunks01 wrote: post #59

This is rubbish. Ketamine is a life-saver and has been proven to relieve depression, regardless of the administration setting. It is not magic and does not work in every case, but the effects are proven across countless studies. S-ketamine has even gone fully through FDA approval. Personally I have used it at home, and at a treatment center. There is no difference in the antidepressant properties, whether someone was…

> It is not magic and does not work in every case,

That is exactly what they are saying in the study. No better than placebo means Ketamine does not cure depression. If ketamine cured depression it would work in every case.

Increasing serotonin receptor density trough Ketamine use may relieve depression, but so can being cared for.

Your beliefs do not matter, biology matters. And it may in fact be that your "strong beliefs" in ketamine are why it helps you.

Re: Ketamine no better than placebo at alleviating depression, unusual trial finds

#73

Post by ta988 »

amelius wrote: post #37
logifail wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a relatively seasoned meditator, I am absolutely sure that this is the trip that helps, not the chemistry The trip is (also) the chemistry!

Can we create a trip without drugs but e.g. using VR goggles only?

No because most of the trip is absolutely not about visuals (even more with Ketamine).

Re: Ketamine no better than placebo at alleviating depression, unusual trial finds

#74

Post by super256 »

huuhee3 wrote: post #6

Then it's still no worse than widely used SSRI's, which also mostly don't differ from placebo

I’ve used both, ketamine and SSRI (fluoxetine to be exact). Ketamine didn’t do anything for me, other than being a funny experience, but it certainly did nothing for my depression.

Fluoxetine also didn’t magically cure my depression, but it made me more risk taking. And I certainly got the anti-depressant effect from the rewards of taking such risks (asking someone out, applying for a new job, asking for extra ketchup on your fries).

It’s still the patients job to fight the disorder, and SSRI can certainly help.

Re: Ketamine no better than placebo at alleviating depression, unusual trial finds

#75

Post by cypherpunks01 »

FollowingTheDao wrote: post #72
cypherpunks01 wrote: post #59

This is rubbish. Ketamine is a life-saver and has been proven to relieve depression, regardless of the administration setting. It is not magic and does not work in every case, but the effects are proven across countless studies. S-ketamine has even gone fully through FDA approval. Personally I have used it at home, and at a treatment center. There is no difference in the antidepressant properties, whether someone was…

> It is not magic and does not work in every case, That is exactly what they are saying in the study. No better than placebo means Ketamine does not cure depression. If ketamine cured depression it would work in every case. Increasing serotonin receptor density trough Ketamine use may relieve depression, but so can being cared for. Your beliefs do not matter, biology matters. And it may in fact be that your "strong b…

The FDA does not approve medicine based on beliefs.

I am sharing my personal perspective, alongside the fact that controlled studies have proven it is one of the most effective treatments known to exist.

Nobody thinks ketamine cures depression, it is one treatment.

Re: Ketamine no better than placebo at alleviating depression, unusual trial finds

#76

Post by FollowingTheDao »

logifail wrote: post #34
aftoprokrustes wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a relatively seasoned meditator, I am absolutely sure that this is the trip that helps, not the chemistry. One way to look at meditation (and, I hear, psychedelics) that fits my experience is that it has the potential effect of opening the range of "ways of looking", to change the way one builds the perceived world. What propulsed my meditation to a totally different level was to see it as a practice of actively e…

> As a relatively seasoned meditator, I am absolutely sure that this is the trip that helps, not the chemistry The trip is (also) the chemistry!

> The trip is (also) the chemistry!

Thank you! Yes, the trip is caused by activation of the HTR2A receptor. It is not magic. everything you experience is both affected by and affects the biology of the body.

You know, I have a fried, diagnosed with depression 15 years ago, tried everything, nothing worked. Know what they finally found her problem was? Familial (genetically caused) hypoglycemia.

We cannot even diagnose depression, it is still too subjective nad personalized. Stop looking for these one size fits all miracle cures and look at your own body.

Re: Ketamine no better than placebo at alleviating depression, unusual trial finds

#77

Post by FollowingTheDao »

sfpotter wrote: post #48
aftoprokrustes wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a relatively seasoned meditator, I am absolutely sure that this is the trip that helps, not the chemistry. One way to look at meditation (and, I hear, psychedelics) that fits my experience is that it has the potential effect of opening the range of "ways of looking", to change the way one builds the perceived world. What propulsed my meditation to a totally different level was to see it as a practice of actively e…

Thanks for sharing your very interesting experiences with meditation. Makes me want to have another go at it. (FYI, you mean to use the word “propel” in place of “propulse” above… they aren’t synonymous, surprisingly.)

Do it!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuowang

Re: Ketamine no better than placebo at alleviating depression, unusual trial finds

#78

Post by tasty_freeze »

FollowingTheDao wrote: post #72
cypherpunks01 wrote: post #59

This is rubbish. Ketamine is a life-saver and has been proven to relieve depression, regardless of the administration setting. It is not magic and does not work in every case, but the effects are proven across countless studies. S-ketamine has even gone fully through FDA approval. Personally I have used it at home, and at a treatment center. There is no difference in the antidepressant properties, whether someone was…

> It is not magic and does not work in every case, That is exactly what they are saying in the study. No better than placebo means Ketamine does not cure depression. If ketamine cured depression it would work in every case. Increasing serotonin receptor density trough Ketamine use may relieve depression, but so can being cared for. Your beliefs do not matter, biology matters. And it may in fact be that your "strong b…

I don't have a position on the paper (I haven't even read it), but this statement you just made seems unjustified:

> If ketamine cured depression it would work in every case.

Depression can have many different causes, and people have many different biological variables, so it should not be surprising that a given treatment isn't 100% effective.

There are many example of this in the real world. With your logic, one might say: the sars covid-19 virus doesn't cause illness because some exposed people showed no symptoms. The families of the dead people would disagree.

Re: Ketamine no better than placebo at alleviating depression, unusual trial finds

#79

Post by FollowingTheDao »

cypherpunks01 wrote: post #75
FollowingTheDao wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not magic and does not work in every case, That is exactly what they are saying in the study. No better than placebo means Ketamine does not cure depression. If ketamine cured depression it would work in every case. Increasing serotonin receptor density trough Ketamine use may relieve depression, but so can being cared for. Your beliefs do not matter, biology matters. And it may in fact be that your "strong b…

The FDA does not approve medicine based on beliefs. I am sharing my personal perspective, alongside the fact that controlled studies have proven it is one of the most effective treatments known to exist. Nobody thinks ketamine cures depression, it is one treatment.

> The FDA does not approve medicine based on beliefs.

Yes, sometimes they do.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/fda-increasingly-approve...

Re: Ketamine no better than placebo at alleviating depression, unusual trial finds

#80

Post by tedivm »

FollowingTheDao wrote: post #72
cypherpunks01 wrote: post #59

This is rubbish. Ketamine is a life-saver and has been proven to relieve depression, regardless of the administration setting. It is not magic and does not work in every case, but the effects are proven across countless studies. S-ketamine has even gone fully through FDA approval. Personally I have used it at home, and at a treatment center. There is no difference in the antidepressant properties, whether someone was…

> It is not magic and does not work in every case, That is exactly what they are saying in the study. No better than placebo means Ketamine does not cure depression. If ketamine cured depression it would work in every case. Increasing serotonin receptor density trough Ketamine use may relieve depression, but so can being cared for. Your beliefs do not matter, biology matters. And it may in fact be that your "strong b…

Something can be effective, especially more effective than a placebo, without being a cure. We have many "treatments" for all sorts of illnesses where the treatment isn't a cure. SSRIs for depression are a treatment, not a cure, just as one example. Hell, even Nyquil is a treatment for symptoms without being a cure.

When it comes to mental health we also have these big umbrella categories (depression, schizophrenia) that are made up of groups of illnesses. Schizophrenia has so many different causes, and thus different treatments, that viewing it as a single illness can actually be problematic.

Anyways, my point is that what you're saying makes no sense at all.

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