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Anxious dogs, like anxious people, need help managing and reducing distress

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Re: Anxious dogs, like anxious people, need help managing and reducing distress

#71

Post by idopmstuff »

misja111 wrote: post #18

I love dogs, but aren't there bigger issues in this world that we should focus on first? Millions of children on this planet are malnourished or suffering because of wars, climate change or just bad government. Is it ethical to pay a fortune for magnetic brain stimulation of your dog, if somewhere else in the world several people's lives could be saved with that money?

I bet if we spent some time going through your finances, we could find plenty of places where you're spending money needlessly that could be saving lives. Are you eating out at nice restaurants? Do you have a new-ish car that you could trade in for an older model? Did you decide to have children?

Unless you've optimized your life by going into the highest-paying career you can and giving virtually all of your money (minus the bare minimum you need to survive) to help those in need, I don't think this is a reasonable argument to be making.

Re: Anxious dogs, like anxious people, need help managing and reducing distress

#72

Post by antisthenes »

misja111 wrote: post #18

I love dogs, but aren't there bigger issues in this world that we should focus on first? Millions of children on this planet are malnourished or suffering because of wars, climate change or just bad government. Is it ethical to pay a fortune for magnetic brain stimulation of your dog, if somewhere else in the world several people's lives could be saved with that money?

> Millions of children on this planet are malnourished or suffering because of wars, climate change or just bad government.

This assumes every child is a net positive for its immediate group, its local group, its country and the global world as a whole.

While you can argue for the first, the latter 3 are not evident.

> Is it ethical to pay a fortune for magnetic brain stimulation of your dog, if somewhere else in the world several people's lives could be saved with that money?

Is it ethical for you to be typing this comment, whereas you could be working instead to earn money to buy food to save several people's lives somewhere in the world?

Re: Anxious dogs, like anxious people, need help managing and reducing distress

#73

Post by brudgers »

mikepurvis wrote: post #19
Tade0 wrote: post #5

> If evidence suggests that many dogs, like many humans, misbehave because they are struggling with emotions and anxiety, why do so many pet owners and trainers look to punishment as the solution, rather than addressing the emotions directly? Same reason why so many people do the same to children - they're set in their views and are unwilling accept that they might be wrong. Also, it's less work (at lesst in the shor…

As a parent who has had to do a bunch of this work, I think a big missing piece in much of the dialogue around it is understanding how exactly the “gentle” style of engagement isn’t just indulging, tolerating, excusing, and even rewarding bad behaviour. The official word is that adopting a gentle and emotionally aware stance has to be paired with a strong sense of boundaries, but it’s often very unclear how to differ…

I had to work on this alot too because my chi...well all happy families are alike but each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.

a gentle and emotionally aware stance has to be paired with a strong sense of boundaries,

To me, a strong sense of self if probably more useful.

Establishing boundaries presumes an expertise that doesn't exist.

Parenting is learned on the job.

Learned over the better part of a lifetime.

Or all of it since we learn parenting by being parented as children...from people who were learning on the job.

we don’t speak like that in this family; I won’t be responding until you talk to me in a respectful way

Are you prepared to walk the walk and kick your child out of the family for responding with "fuck you"?

Never mind that withholding conversation from a child is punishment?

"Please don't talk to me like that. I don't like it," is the simplest thing that might work. It's also a good way to talk to other people. Because human relationships boil down to a good will, negotiation, or violence.

Boundaries bound operating on goodwill.

Re: Anxious dogs, like anxious people, need help managing and reducing distress

#74

Post by kevviiinn »

mikepurvis wrote: post #59
kevviiinn wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what the OP was getting at is perfectly exemplified in this comment. A person who is set in their ways and unable to comprehend the emotional state of another being, just viewing the resulting behaviors as purely "bad"

At risk of attacking a straw man, do you believe it's ever possible to have a "bad" behaviour? When an adult throws a temper tantrum to an airplane stewardess, is that also something we should look on with "comprehension of another being's emotional state", or is it in fact entitlement, selfishness, poor regulation, and unrealistic expectations? Is that behaviour something we can agree on as being "bad"? I think that…

I find it rather strange that you conflate the emotional state of a human whose brain is still rapidly developing with that of an adult. You can't possibly believe that those two things are even close to comparable

Re: Anxious dogs, like anxious people, need help managing and reducing distress

#75

Post by rcme »

Tade0 wrote: post #5

> If evidence suggests that many dogs, like many humans, misbehave because they are struggling with emotions and anxiety, why do so many pet owners and trainers look to punishment as the solution, rather than addressing the emotions directly? Same reason why so many people do the same to children - they're set in their views and are unwilling accept that they might be wrong. Also, it's less work (at lesst in the shor…

Punishment, aka negative reinforcement, can be required in some cases. For instance, if your dog learns they can jump on the counter to steal food, then there isn't really a way to train that out of them with positive reinforcement. That doesn't mean yelling at a dog per se, but using a loud sound or might mousetrap on the counter can help discourage the behavior. "Timeout" is also a very common dog training strategy.

Re: Anxious dogs, like anxious people, need help managing and reducing distress

#76

Post by logifail »

iepathos wrote: post #35
logifail wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Same reason why so many people do the same to children - they're set in their views and are unwilling accept that they might be wrong There are plenty who believe that withdrawing privileges is an entirely normal and appropriate response when children misbehave. This isn't punishment, although some children consider it to be.

Actually, it's the definition of punishment: inflicting or imposing penalties as retribution for an offense. Withdrawing privileges is an imposed penalty. idk if it's appropriate or not, but it's objectively punishment not just an opinion children have.

> Actually, it's the definition of punishment: inflicting or imposing penalties as retribution for an offense.

Children are not small adults, but they are surprisingly capable of understanding incentives.

"If you behave well you can have ice cream. If you behave badly, you don't get ice cream. It's your choice."

It's awful to teach children that behaviour doesn't matter. Actions do have consequences.

Re: Anxious dogs, like anxious people, need help managing and reducing distress

#77

Post by brudgers »

SpaghettiCthulu wrote: post #46
sidewndr46 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that asking someone how they are feeling is an "emotional deep dive" is a portion of the problem. Asking a family member how they are feeling should not be considered an in-depth activity.

> The idea that asking someone how they are feeling is an "emotional deep dive" is a portion of the problem. I would argue that the "emotional deep dive" example is not merely asking how someone is feeling. > it sounds like you’re processing some big feelings right now, let’s talk about what’s going on for you Speaking from experience when I was a kid, being spoken to in this manner always felt belittling.

In some families, conversations are weaponized. The question might feel belittling because it is used used to belittle.

Questions often reflect status relationships where some people have the privilege to expect answers and thus carry a demeanor of expecting answers to their questions.

Questions are used as a reminder that the other person is obligated to answer.

Re: Anxious dogs, like anxious people, need help managing and reducing distress

#78

Post by throwaway646465 »

SpaghettiCthulu wrote: post #46
sidewndr46 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that asking someone how they are feeling is an "emotional deep dive" is a portion of the problem. Asking a family member how they are feeling should not be considered an in-depth activity.

> The idea that asking someone how they are feeling is an "emotional deep dive" is a portion of the problem. I would argue that the "emotional deep dive" example is not merely asking how someone is feeling. > it sounds like you’re processing some big feelings right now, let’s talk about what’s going on for you Speaking from experience when I was a kid, being spoken to in this manner always felt belittling.

> Speaking from experience when I was a kid, being spoken to in this manner always felt belittling.

I think a lot of it comes down to how people usually communicate with the kid.

Like I can’t possibly imagine my Dad saying “Looks like we got some big feelings here, want to talk about it?” It sounds so silly and patronizing.

But a “Boona, I can’t help unless you tell me what’s wrong” is completely normal to my ears.

For all intents and purposes they’re the same question though. I think kids just just know us more than we give them credit for, so if you pull out the “Journal approved parenting voice” when that’s not how you talk normally they’ll react accordingly.

Re: Anxious dogs, like anxious people, need help managing and reducing distress

#79

Post by misja111 »

misja111 wrote: post #18

I love dogs, but aren't there bigger issues in this world that we should focus on first? Millions of children on this planet are malnourished or suffering because of wars, climate change or just bad government. Is it ethical to pay a fortune for magnetic brain stimulation of your dog, if somewhere else in the world several people's lives could be saved with that money?

I'm amazed by the cynicism in the reactions here. I was trying to make the point, that if you have heart enough to spend a serious amount of money on your dog's wellbeing, shouldn't you consider spending it on saving somebody's life instead? Or at least some part of it.

The reactions vary from, the dying child is thousands of miles away (and your unhappy dog is not), to, if you're not maximizing your life on donating every possible penny you can spare to charity, you have no right to post a thought like this. Is this really the common view on HN on how we should live our lives?

Re: Anxious dogs, like anxious people, need help managing and reducing distress

#80

Post by logifail »

throwaway173738 wrote: post #68
iepathos wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it's the definition of punishment: inflicting or imposing penalties as retribution for an offense. Withdrawing privileges is an imposed penalty. idk if it's appropriate or not, but it's objectively punishment not just an opinion children have.

It’s called negative punishment, and is pretty ineffective at eliciting the desired behavior. Positive reinforcement is the only way to spotlight the behavior you want by rewarding it. Punishment is more like learning the shape of a room by stubbing your toes on the walls. You’ll eventually get it but only after trying everything else you can think of.

> It’s called negative punishment

It isn't:

"[..] people confuse negative reinforcement with punishment, but these are two different concepts"[0]

[0] https://www.webmd.com/parenting/what-to-know-about-negative-...

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