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How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

economist.com

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Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#71

Post by penneallagricia »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #70
penneallagricia wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

What makes you believe the free market would lead to decreased usage in dirty steel?

I don't know specifically, I was told that the free market is able to solve any problem when left alone.

Whenever there is a discussion about the lack of affordable housing I am told that what we need is less regulations so that the free market can take care of it. I wonder why it shouldn't be the same for environmental issues since the free market is so powerful.

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#72

Post by CogitoCogito »

penneallagricia wrote: post #71
CogitoCogito wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you believe the free market would lead to decreased usage in dirty steel?

I don't know specifically, I was told that the free market is able to solve any problem when left alone. Whenever there is a discussion about the lack of affordable housing I am told that what we need is less regulations so that the free market can take care of it. I wonder why it shouldn't be the same for environmental issues since the free market is so powerful.

> I don't know specifically, I was told that the free market is able to solve any problem when left alone.

And many people are told God will solve any problem when left alone. I guess the lesson is don't believe everything you're told.

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#73

Post by penneallagricia »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #72
penneallagricia wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know specifically, I was told that the free market is able to solve any problem when left alone. Whenever there is a discussion about the lack of affordable housing I am told that what we need is less regulations so that the free market can take care of it. I wonder why it shouldn't be the same for environmental issues since the free market is so powerful.

> I don't know specifically, I was told that the free market is able to solve any problem when left alone. And many people are told God will solve any problem when left alone. I guess the lesson is don't believe everything you're told.

If you didnt get it I am playing the idiot. It's the only way I can criticize the holy free market without being insta-flagged. If I openly joke on it I'm flagged for causing a flamewar. If I argue against it in honesty I get downvoted to hell. The only way left to speak about the free market as someone who doesn't believe in it is to play the idiot, so that I can prove the absurdity of the argument.

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#74

Post by pfannkuchen »

penneallagricia wrote: post #71
CogitoCogito wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you believe the free market would lead to decreased usage in dirty steel?

I don't know specifically, I was told that the free market is able to solve any problem when left alone. Whenever there is a discussion about the lack of affordable housing I am told that what we need is less regulations so that the free market can take care of it. I wonder why it shouldn't be the same for environmental issues since the free market is so powerful.

On a long enough time scale though it actually does. Societies which fail to be sustainable “go out of business”. Eventually, societies which achieve sustainability will “remain in business”. We are hoping to shortcut this market process, for obvious reasons.

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#75

Post by easytiger »

WeylandYutani wrote: post #69
easytiger wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * Europe will subsidize initially* Not charging levies and taxes is not providing a subsidy. These things push up costs of living, costs of housing, costs of doing business - at a time when such artificial costs are presenting an existential threat to our way of life. It's all laughably irrelevant anyway. In 2021 China estimated >1,000 million tonnes of steel (and that doesn't count the steel they finance in other…

I live in the Netherlands. Climate change is an existential threat to my way of life.

Maybe building a country below sea level on reclaimed land using very clever technology wasn't a brilliant long term strategy? What that has to do with CO2 emissions I don't know

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#76

Post by easytiger »

imtringued wrote: post #64
easytiger wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * Europe will subsidize initially* Not charging levies and taxes is not providing a subsidy. These things push up costs of living, costs of housing, costs of doing business - at a time when such artificial costs are presenting an existential threat to our way of life. It's all laughably irrelevant anyway. In 2021 China estimated >1,000 million tonnes of steel (and that doesn't count the steel they finance in other…

>These things push up costs of living, costs of housing, costs of doing business - at a time when such artificial costs are presenting an existential threat to our way of life. There is a part of the balance sheet that you aren't looking at that is presenting an existential threat. A higher bill for energy isn't an existential risk. >This childishly reductive paradigm of victimhood in relation to every macro and micr…

> It's called actions having consequences

What consequences?

What will cause market failure?

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#77

Post by goatlover »

realityking wrote: post #34
goatlover wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The climate doesn’t care about per capita. The developing world has the majority of the population, so the majority of additional CO2 will be coming from there.

In effect you‘re saying that countries that are poor today must not be allowed to reach the level of western countries. I don‘t have a good word for it but that‘s a very specific worldview. If we believe that every country has the right to develop, than the poorest countries emission will increase. Better technology will flatten that increase but those are expensive. Wealthy countries pioneering the widespread use of…

I'm not saying that. I think countries should do what they need to do and hopefully we can figure out how to deal with climate change together. I doubt we keep warming below 2.5 degrees.

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#78

Post by kwere »

roamerz wrote: post #29

The sooner that people realize that the climate is going to change regardless of what humanity does the better off we will be. When the reality sinks in maybe we can put our efforts into adapting. Might have a chance that way.

The world had a chance to keep climate change under the belt in the 80s with nuclear energy, but unscentific enviromentalists pushed hard against it and helped to kill the nuclear industry in most of the world before it reached maturity/economies of scales (like modular reactors today). Now, the trillions of $ should be better spend adapting our societies to climate changes instead of playing Don Chisciotte

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#79

Post by credit_guy »

throwaway5959 wrote: post #48
_hypx wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's steel recycling, not production of new steel.

On a long enough time horizon wouldn’t it make sense for most steel to be recycled? I think we already get a lot of our aluminum from recycling.

But most steel is already being recycled, at least in the US, according to the US Geological Surveys [1]

  > Recycling rates, which fluctuate annually, were estimated to be 98% for structural steel from construction, 88% for appliances, 71% for rebar and reinforcement steel, and 70% for steel packaging. The recycling rates for appliance, can, and construction steel are expected to increase in the United States and in emerging industrial countries at an even greater rate. Public interest in recycling continues, and recycling is becoming more profitable and convenient as environmental regulations for primary production increase.
[1] https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2021/mcs2021-iron-steel...

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#80

Post by throwaway5959 »

credit_guy wrote: post #79
throwaway5959 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a long enough time horizon wouldn’t it make sense for most steel to be recycled? I think we already get a lot of our aluminum from recycling.

But most steel is already being recycled, at least in the US, according to the US Geological Surveys [1] > Recycling rates, which fluctuate annually, were estimated to be 98% for structural steel from construction, 88% for appliances, 71% for rebar and reinforcement steel, and 70% for steel packaging. The recycling rates for appliance, can, and construction steel are expected to increase in the United States and in e…

So… yes?
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