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The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

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Re: The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

#71

> Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is the scientific equivalent of: Have you read a work of Shakespeare's? But that's not quite true, is it. In the one case, he's asking someone to explain a very specific thing (one particular physical law), and i…

I don't buy that. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is not only basic, but can be stated in a sentence. Being able to generally recall the plot of Romeo & Juliet (or any Shakespeare play) is objectively harder than being able to spit out that sentence. I'll make the bold claim that Second Law of Thermodynamics would be recalled by far more scientists than the plot of Coriolanus would be by MFAs. The worst thing we do…

> make obvious mistakes about the relative costs and effects of things

Didn't that ship already sail when they became liberal arts majors?

Re: The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

#72

> Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is the scientific equivalent of: Have you read a work of Shakespeare's? But that's not quite true, is it. In the one case, he's asking someone to explain a very specific thing (one particular physical law), and i…

I don't buy that. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is not only basic, but can be stated in a sentence. Being able to generally recall the plot of Romeo & Juliet (or any Shakespeare play) is objectively harder than being able to spit out that sentence. I'll make the bold claim that Second Law of Thermodynamics would be recalled by far more scientists than the plot of Coriolanus would be by MFAs. The worst thing we do…

Perhaps a version of the second law can be described in one sentence ("heat flows from hot to cold", perhaps), but when I go to the Wikipedia page, it's quite a bit more complicated than that (e.g. existence/importance of entropy). Romeo and Juliet is quite a bit simpler -- forbidden love, mistaken suicide.

Re: The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

#73
post #64

In hindsight, he has misjudged the situation. Scientific education is not the key. If we accept that there are only two cultures, then the Russian decline shows that focusing on science was the wrong choice. >Anyway, the Russians have judged what kind and number of educated men and women a country needs to come out top in the scientific revolution. I am going to oversimplify, but their estimate, and I believe it's pr…

Germany was one of the most scientifically literate and scientifically advanced nations at the start of WW2. Scientific knowhow did not prevent them from leading their society and the world in a catastrophic direction.

Re: The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

#74
Claude's[1] critique of The Two Cultures:

Here are some critiques of CP Snow's The Two Cultures:

1. It oversimplifies the relationship between science and humanities. Snow frames it as a polarization between the "two cultures" of science and literature, but in reality there are many connections, overlaps, and interactions between the fields.

2. It ignores the social sciences. Snow focuses mainly on natural science vs. literature, but ignores fields like psychology, sociology, economics, and political science that don't cleanly fit into either category.

3. It employs a deficit model. Snow portrays humanities scholars as lacking an understanding of science, rather than recognizing that both fields have different but legitimate areas of expertise.

4. It is Eurocentric. Snow's view of "culture" is rooted mainly in Western European traditions of science and literature. It ignores non-Western cultures and knowledge systems.

5. It frames science as value-neutral and objective while implying that humanities are value-laden and subjective. Many scholars argue that science is also shaped by social and cultural values.

6. It may exaggerate the gulf between the two cultures. While there are differences, there is also significant overlapping membership, shared influences, and common aims between scientists and humanities scholars.

7. It is dated. Snow's analysis, written in 1959, does not reflect many of the recent interactions and intersections between science and humanities that have emerged since then.

---

On the last point, Claude elaborates:

... here are some ways that CP Snow's The Two Cultures has become more dated since it was published in 1959:

1. Increased interdisciplinary work: There has been a major growth in interdisciplinary research that integrates methods and insights from both science and humanities. Fields like science and technology studies, cognitive literary studies, and neurohumanities have emerged.

2. Collaboration between scientists and humanists: There are many more examples today of scientists and humanities scholars working together on collaborative projects. This was less common when Snow was writing.

3. Science in humanities curriculum: Many humanities programs now incorporate more history, philosophy and social aspects of science into their curriculum. Students are exposed to both fields more holistically.

4. Humanities in science curriculum: There is a growing trend of incorporating ethics, communication and other humanities topics into science education as well. This helps develop more well-rounded scientists.

5. Porous boundaries: The traditional boundaries between disciplines have become more porous, allowing for ideas, methods and approaches to cross-pollinate between fields.

6. Broader public discourse: There is a more nuanced and sophisticated public discourse around science, technology and society that incorporates both scientific and humanistic perspectives.

7. Advances in technology: Rapid technological changes, like the internet and AI, have created new intersections and dialogues between science and humanities that Snow could not have envisioned.

So in general, over the past 60 years since The Two Cultures was published, there has been a massive increase in interaction, dialogue and integration between science and humanities. The traditional "gulf" that Snow described has become far more complex, multidirectional and dynamic. The metaphor of "two cultures" has become less relevant and useful to describe modern academia and intellectual life.

[1] - https://poe.com/Claude-instant

Re: The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy that. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is not only basic, but can be stated in a sentence. Being able to generally recall the plot of Romeo & Juliet (or any Shakespeare play) is objectively harder than being able to spit out that sentence. I'll make the bold claim that Second Law of Thermodynamics would be recalled by far more scientists than the plot of Coriolanus would be by MFAs. The worst thing we do…

I would bet you money if you asked a random sampling of college grads, 10x the number of people could roughly summarize Romeo and Juliet than the second law of thermodynamics.

The Two Cultures isn’t just about lamenting that science knowledge is underrepresented though. The tragedy is that for a typical college grad they can do one or the other but not both.

Re: The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

#76
‘I remember G. H. Hardy once remarking to me in mild puzzlement, some time in the 1930s: "Have you noticed how the word 'intellectual' is used nowadays? There seems to be a new definition which certainly doesn't include Rutherford or Eddington or Dirac or Adrian or me. It does seem rather odd, don't y'know?".’

  - C. P. Snow

Re: The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy that. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is not only basic, but can be stated in a sentence. Being able to generally recall the plot of Romeo & Juliet (or any Shakespeare play) is objectively harder than being able to spit out that sentence. I'll make the bold claim that Second Law of Thermodynamics would be recalled by far more scientists than the plot of Coriolanus would be by MFAs. The worst thing we do…

Perhaps a version of the second law can be described in one sentence ("heat flows from hot to cold", perhaps), but when I go to the Wikipedia page, it's quite a bit more complicated than that (e.g. existence/importance of entropy). Romeo and Juliet is quite a bit simpler -- forbidden love, mistaken suicide.

Yeah, the one sentence would be "entropy in a closed system can only increase"

Re: The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

#78
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> is objectively harder I don't think it's objectively harder - at the very least, [citation needed]. It might be subjectively harder for you. But one is a random factoid, the other one is a story. Humans are, in general, exceedingly good at stories. Facts, we tend to focus on the areas we know. You and I might be good at physics facts, or software facts. Somebody else might be good at agriculture facts, or knittin…

"a random factoid" would be "the NY subway has 493 stations". The laws of Thermodynamics are fundamentals like "what is democracy"

I'm talking about the shape of the information, not its relative importance.

Humans deal better with one shape than the other. That's the reason so many memorization techniques rely on stringing things together in stories.

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