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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#71

Post by its-summertime »

rgmerk wrote: post #52
stathibus wrote: post #2

Everyone is worked up about losing their gas stove, but natural gas heating is far more reliable and efficient than any electric option right now. This will create a lot of issues until heat pumps catch up. Northern New York is very cold.

Yes, but the vast majority of the population of New York State lives in places where air source heat pumps work just fine. Air source heat pumps can be built to work down to at least -20 Fahrenheit[1]. That's equal to the coldest temperature on record in places like Buffalo and Albany. For those relatively few people living in places which get even colder than that, there's the option of either ground loop heat pumps…

But is it more efficient overall? Gas to elec, infrastructure losses, etc. vs just gas to heat?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#72

Post by rcme »

SigmundA wrote: post #37
jrockway wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bigger problem is getting a feed to your house that can handle your hot water heater, stove, washing machine, and electric car charging all at once. That's rather impractical in some areas, so there is some work to coordinate between the appliances so they can share a smaller feed. The way some stoves are participating is that they charge a battery at relatively low current all the time, and then cook from the batt…

Worst case at 240v : Electric hot water heater = 20 amps Electric stove = 50 amps all burners on and oven Washing machine = 15 amps Car charger = 50 amps Total = 135 amps Standard residential service in the US = 200 amps split phase @ 240v Whats the problem?

You didn't include air conditioning, vacuum, power washer, power tools, etc. It's not that you'd be running all these things at once (although AC run a lot), but it's pretty crazy that you could even come close to tripping your main breaker.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#74

Post by greenthrow »

ou8_1_2 wrote: post #44
SigmundA wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worst case at 240v : Electric hot water heater = 20 amps Electric stove = 50 amps all burners on and oven Washing machine = 15 amps Car charger = 50 amps Total = 135 amps Standard residential service in the US = 200 amps split phase @ 240v Whats the problem?

All the other 15 amp circuits people take for granted for things like lights, the clothes dryer and the heat/cooling system you left off your list (heat pump + air handler + emergency heat coils)... Add in the 80% rule and 200amps doesn't go as far as one might hope in a gas free-house.

The 80% rule is for running circuits and for breakers. It has nothing to do with actual load capacity. I.e. with 200A service you can have well beyond 200A nominal worth of breakers in your box (250A), but when all those things are running it should still use 200A or less if the 80% rule was followed.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#75

Post by rcme »

JamisonM wrote: post #65
john_shafthair wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not when the power's out for days - as often happens in winter storms. You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator for a week or even better a natural gas whole house unit in perpetuity. So you don't, you know, freeze to death.

"You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator.." Likewise for a heat pump, right? Does this "power out for days after a winter storm" thing actually happen very often? I am from Manitoba and my worst-ever experience was 10-11 hours when it was very, very cold out in 35+ years.

You need way to power to drive the heat pump than you do to run the blower. But I agree, it's stupid to act like a natural gas furnace is a good choice for long-term power outages.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#76

Post by greenthrow »

stathibus wrote: post #2

Everyone is worked up about losing their gas stove, but natural gas heating is far more reliable and efficient than any electric option right now. This will create a lot of issues until heat pumps catch up. Northern New York is very cold.

This is completely false. Gas heating is way, way less efficient than a heat pump. And don't bring up low temperatures, modern heat pumps can have back up resistive heaters and combined use will still be far, far more efficient than gas heat. If you can install geothermal that's better still. Stop spreading fossil fuel industry lies.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#77

Post by greenthrow »

john_shafthair wrote: post #10
tombert wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't modern heat pumps work even in crazy cold climates now? I seem to remember seeing that some are rated for -20F nowadays.

Not when the power's out for days - as often happens in winter storms. You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator for a week or even better a natural gas whole house unit in perpetuity. So you don't, you know, freeze to death.

What nonsense. If you ha e a backup generator your power isn't out. Gas heat doesn't work with the power out. Why are you resorting to lies to push fossil fuels?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#78

Post by rcme »

stathibus wrote: post #2

Everyone is worked up about losing their gas stove, but natural gas heating is far more reliable and efficient than any electric option right now. This will create a lot of issues until heat pumps catch up. Northern New York is very cold.

Heat Pumps can run in very cold temperatures, but it's just not worth it, economically, because their efficiency drops and gas becomes a cheaper option.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#79

Post by greenthrow »

tomohawk wrote: post #40
smileysteve wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take the investment that is the infrastructure for gas lines (all underground) and do similar for most electricity then storms don't take out electricity and people don't die. Best of all, the total investment and maintenance actually decreases.

How about you get that done first, prove that its at least as reliable, and then start banning things?

Other countries have buried their power lines ages ago, and yes it is as reliable as gas, more so.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#80

Post by r00fus »

greenthrow wrote: post #76
stathibus wrote: post #2

Everyone is worked up about losing their gas stove, but natural gas heating is far more reliable and efficient than any electric option right now. This will create a lot of issues until heat pumps catch up. Northern New York is very cold.

This is completely false. Gas heating is way, way less efficient than a heat pump. And don't bring up low temperatures, modern heat pumps can have back up resistive heaters and combined use will still be far, far more efficient than gas heat. If you can install geothermal that's better still. Stop spreading fossil fuel industry lies.

At very low temperatures? I think if you're above zero F, you should be ok, but below zero it gets expensive.

They're not talking about taxing gas - they're talking about banning it.

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