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The EU suppressed a 300-page study that found piracy doesn’t harm sales (2017)

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Re: The EU suppressed a 300-page study that found piracy doesn’t harm sales (2017)

#71

To be honest I’ve never understood why people believe they’re entitled other people’s work for free. Perhaps someone can clarify?

It’s the nature of how computers make copying an initial work nearly zero additional cost.

This has never been the case in human history prior to digital/analog recording of content, and it keeps getting closer and closer to zero cost to duplicate.

This breaks people’s moral framework because they now have to grasp things like game theory to understand second and third order harm.

Re: The EU suppressed a 300-page study that found piracy doesn’t harm sales (2017)

#72

I’ve worked to prevent piracy of a SaaS software for a niche industry. When we put the first anti piracy solution in place during the winter of 2020 they tripled the number of subscribers within a week. Some might argue this was due to Covid lockdowns but this was months after most businesses had already been locked down and the timing directly coincided with the implementation. Support was inundated with requests to…

How was the SaaS product pirated? I've always used that to refer to a delivery model where the software is centrally hosted. Was it that people were sharing their logins?

I thought the same thing. If it's a client-side solution, it's only a matter of time before it's cracked again.

Re: The EU suppressed a 300-page study that found piracy doesn’t harm sales (2017)

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be pleased if that applied to all of your work too? That immediately anyone can start taking your work and making money off of it? Copyright at least makes big players pay the original creators for the rights to the works. Netflix going ahead and making money off of subscribers while paying nothing to creators would be a significantly worse situation.

> Would you be pleased if that applied to all of your work too? That immediately anyone can start taking your work and making money off of it? Sure. From now on I either release my software as AGPLv3 or I don't release it at all. Truth is even if someone violates my license I'm not gonna waste my limited time on this earth litigating against them in court over it. I have better things to do. Stallman would disagree b…

I don't know about Stallman, but, as I interpret it, Bradley Kuhn agrees with you.

https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2022/mar/17/copyleft-ethical-...

Re: The EU suppressed a 300-page study that found piracy doesn’t harm sales (2017)

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sort of humorous that "rule against perpetuities" is a fundamental legal concept [1] [2] but copyright just sidesteps that and allows for locking up culture for almost two centuries. [1] https://youtu.be/j1jkilao3MQ?t=903 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_against_perpetuities

That's interesting. Have there been attempts to litigate copyrights based on that precedent?

I don't think so. Copyright already has an equivalent rule in the constitution, and that applies to the whole term, not just to transfers of copyright in a will.

That being said, the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act and the subsequent SCOTUS case Eldred v. Ashcroft[0] showed that this rule is very flimsy. The biggest protection against copyright perpetuities is that Congress currently shows no appetite for a further extension. The life+70 extension we got last time happened in a time when copyright was an uncontroversial and boring matter. This stopped being the case just a few years after the CTEA, when the masses realized that this fancy new digital realm called the Internet was functionally owned by whoever owned the copyrights on the data running through it.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eldred_v._Ashcroft

Re: The EU suppressed a 300-page study that found piracy doesn’t harm sales (2017)

#75
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with your disagreement. 10 years is too short, 70 years is too long. There should definitely be a reduction but 10 years isn't it.

Even 10 years is too generous. I'd rather make it 0 instead. I said 10 years because it's what would make copyright tolerable . The right thing as far as I'm concerned is abolishing it straight up. 10 years is a reasonable compromise. Remember, copyright exists at all because we allow it. The raw reality these monopolists face is that public domain is the default state of all information. We're all just pretending th…

> Even 10 years is too generous. I'd rather make it 0 instead. I said 10 years because it's what would make copyright tolerable. The right thing as far as I'm concerned is abolishing it straight up. 10 years is a reasonable compromise.

That's not a reasonable compromise. Your proposal of 0 years in a nonstarter, and walking slightly back from that is still a nonstarter. It's pretty clear your prioritizing only your own interests and desires, and not even really thinking about anyone else's.

For instance: have you considered that abolishing copyright would abolish the GPL, too? As in, you'd have no right to demand the source to modified GPL code that was distributed. The foundation of the GPL is copyright.

Copyright was created for good reason. It is not reasonable to get mad and burn it all down without considering those reasons, and the other effects burning it down will cause.

> Remember, copyright exists at all because we allow it. The raw reality these monopolists face is that public domain is the default state of all information. We're all just pretending that we can't easily copy this stuff.

We're also all pretending that we can't easily kill other people (btw, we totally can, and you probably regularly operate a 3,000lb death machine).

> The social contract was: we pretend we don't know how to copy their stuff, they get to make their money and then the works enter the public domain. They're clearly not keeping up their end of the social contract. Why should we? We should all just stop pretending we're dumb enough not to download their stuff at zero cost.

They're advocating for their interests, "we've" advocated for ours, so stuff is entering public domain (Steamboat Willie is almost there, and there are no copyright extensions in the works to keep it there).

The correct solution is to dial back the previous excesses in term lengths to something long enough that it wouldn't imperil investment in the production of new works (which can be hundreds of millions of dollars per).

Re: The EU suppressed a 300-page study that found piracy doesn’t harm sales (2017)

#76

Look, I like free stuff as much as the next guy, but I don't buy (no pun intended) the results of this study: https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2021/06/15/us-recorded-musi...

The article you're citing literally blames streaming, which incidentally has also been largely responsible for a decline in music piracy - it's too cheap and convenient for most consumers to bother pirating instead.

Re: The EU suppressed a 300-page study that found piracy doesn’t harm sales (2017)

#77
post #50
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't put CD into your phone; but you can put MP3 on it. As Gaben said, "piracy is a service problem". Look at years; that's when portable music players; then smartphones; started to become popular Pirating is easier than buying CD then ripping MP3 just to listen. If we had the ease of use of today's music streaming the dip would probably be much lower; but between the tech at the time and RIAA cockblocking anyone th…

Re: Gaben quote - While there are some grains of truth to the quote, I think it’s oversimplifying the problem. After all, Gaben’s primary product is essentially a DRM platform (one of the first online DRM platforms for that matter!), evidently he believes he can’t compete with piracy on service quality alone. Continuing the game piracy line, game piracy is often a significantly worse service outside of the “free stuf…

> After all, Gaben’s primary product is essentially a DRM platform (one of the first online DRM platforms for that matter!), evidently he believes he can’t compete with piracy on service quality alone.

He absolutely can. Steam is DRM but it's the least shitty DRM implementation I've ever seen. I get very angry when corporations start rolling their own shitty stores instead of just using Steam for everything. I have games on my account that used to be sold on Steam but aren't available anymore because the corporation made their own store. It's hard to describe how aggravating that is.

Back in the day I'd buy games I already had on Steam just for the convenience of having them on Steam. There's a reason people don't remember what PC gaming used to be like before Steam and it's because Steam made them forget all about stuff like downloading multiple 500 MB incremental patches just to play online. Steam is essentially the Windows package manager.

Re: The EU suppressed a 300-page study that found piracy doesn’t harm sales (2017)

#78
post #3

Needs [2017] in the title.

Prob at height of piracy powers before Netflix and music streaming services went popular

Netflix has successfully driven me back to piracy. Their catalog is shit, they have only one part of a lot of trilogies, Harry Potter keeps disappearing and their UI is so full of bugs I wonder if anyone working at Netflix actually uses it.

Re: The EU suppressed a 300-page study that found piracy doesn’t harm sales (2017)

#79

I’ve worked to prevent piracy of a SaaS software for a niche industry. When we put the first anti piracy solution in place during the winter of 2020 they tripled the number of subscribers within a week. Some might argue this was due to Covid lockdowns but this was months after most businesses had already been locked down and the timing directly coincided with the implementation. Support was inundated with requests to…

An argument is that those who would pirate aren't going to pay regardless. I think a software for a niche industry has a lot less flexibility for the customer to do that than a piece of entertainment like game or movie. Piracy definitely has a negative effect on sale. But whether that effect is worth the effort to implement DRM solutions or not is a different issue.

Some of those who would pirate aren't going to pay regardless. This is unremarkable economically -- we're all used to the ideas of price points and elasticity. Every market for a good or service will segment into people whose demand is inelastic, people who register at somewhat elastic levels of demand / substitutability, and people whose demand is very elastic and substitutable. Piracy & other forms of uncompensated acquisition just invite us to think about segments where the price point is vanishing.

DRM probably works best in situations where it's also paired with convenience and there are modest to high levels of inelastic demand (and in the realm of low-to-modest levels of inelasticity, convenience might be enough even w/o DRM)

The other fact about piracy that's probably worth considering is that in some cases it can produce future sales. Not all people have an agreeable desire to contribute economically and understand that piracy means they haven't compensated the provider, which threatens their incentive/ability to provide more, but some do, and will eventually buy in when they're less price sensitive or more convinced of the value in a work by experience with it.

(This last point, incidentally, is one reason why I think Spotify's narrative of having saved the industry from piracy is self-serving and wrong to the point it may even have done more damage than the piracy it replaced via convenience for many. Someone engaging in music piracy knows they aren't contributing to a musician economically but may well decide to make legit purchases once they're a fan with a relationship to the artist's work. Someone using Spotify is encouraged to believe they're engaged in a legitimate economic exchange with the artist and is less likely to feel a need for later fan buy-in... when in fact the economics of platforms are practically indistinguishable from piracy for many artists.)

Re: The EU suppressed a 300-page study that found piracy doesn’t harm sales (2017)

#80

To be honest I’ve never understood why people believe they’re entitled other people’s work for free. Perhaps someone can clarify?

It’s the nature of how computers make copying an initial work nearly zero additional cost. This has never been the case in human history prior to digital/analog recording of content, and it keeps getting closer and closer to zero cost to duplicate. This breaks people’s moral framework because they now have to grasp things like game theory to understand second and third order harm.

I still don't understand - even if the cost is literally zero to copy, that still wouldn't necessarily entitle one to someone else's work without compensation if that is what they require.
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