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Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

journals.sagepub.com

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Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#71

Post by jacquesm »

ofalkaed wrote: post #42
jacquesm wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I grew up, a small EU country just knowing the local language would be super limiting. Here we learn Dutch, English, German and French in high school, and I picked up some Polish while living there. I'm not exceptional at all here and I'm nowhere near where someone who studies linguistics is.

Sure, and if you learned linguistics you would have been able to pick up those languages more quickly with a better understanding. But like I already said, most should learn languages for pragmatic reasons, what it offers them, not for some vague reasons. I guess my point was that there would be advantage to having people study linguistics in high school instead of a second (or third or whatever) language, give the s…

You may well have a point. But: I know several people with a degree in linguistics and while it may help them to have a better idea of the structure and deeper understanding of languages in general it doesn't seem to help them at all in day to day communications with people in other languages. They tend to get hung up at the details of grammar and the finer points of sentence structure whereas what matters is to keep up the flow of information. Function over form any day. You see the same with music: people that know a ton of music theory can be very good musicians. But there are plenty of musicians who have a fairly shallow understanding of the theory but they pick up an instrument and start making music rather than to wonder about the theory behind it.

Language and music have a lot in common in that respect, it's perfectly possible to be proficient at either without having a very deep understanding of the theory as long as you are willing to put in the hours, and having that deep understanding is - as far as I've been able to discern - absolutely no guarantee for being good at making music or communicating with other people. It may help some but I doubt that it is the kind of thing that works for everybody in the way that you assert. It's hard enough to get kids to learn a new language, even if it has some direct applicability. Getting them to learn an abstract science which lays a foundation that they then may be able to apply to learning another language may well be one demand too many.

Still, for whoever it works it may be worth the extra investment in time and effort.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#72

Post by cshimmin »

tnel77 wrote: post #55

My theory: in the United States, speaking multiple languages can be a sign of coming from a more financially sound household. I wouldn’t expect a second language to be any better for the brain than studying math or learning to play an instrument. As always, the most important factor is money.

I would be surprised if the majority of bilingual speakers in the US aren't first/second gen immigrants. Not exactly known to be "a sign of coming from" wealth

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#73

Post by makeitdouble »

tnel77 wrote: post #55

My theory: in the United States, speaking multiple languages can be a sign of coming from a more financially sound household. I wouldn’t expect a second language to be any better for the brain than studying math or learning to play an instrument. As always, the most important factor is money.

On the finance part, I think it's complex, in particular relative to who.

For instance, immigrants will massively be bilingual in general. We could argue there are in a better financial and educational position than those who couldn't immigrate in the first place, but then relative to the country they live, they can be on bottom of the social ladder.

On the parrallel with studying other subjects, I think it rings true, the only difference would be that bilingualism can be "forced" upon children by circumstances or environment, where math or instruments usually come later and/or on a choice basis.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#74

Post by courgette »

gsk22 wrote: post #62
courgette wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French being my first language, I can says the same things with fancier words in english. But sometime I will use English turn of sentences in French and it sounds weird ( just did it a l’envers here, pretty sure “turn of sentence” does not exists in English ) I’m ok at Spanish too. My main motivation is to be able to talk to random peoples when traveling. English came de facto because of the internet and US soft pow…

> pretty sure “turn of sentence” does not exists in English We do say "turn of phrase" in English, which means something similar. I wonder if both have the same origin.

Ha. Silly me. It’s “tournure de phrase” in french.

It actually goes to show that my command of English is limited. I know both words but “phrase” did not occurs to me even so it’s the same damn word :)

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#76

Post by courgette »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #69
tick_tock_tick wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean them colonizing the USA.....

The presence of English in India is pretty clearly due to the efforts of the British, not the Americans. Same thing in Australia. Presence of English in France and Germany might be more due to Americans.

In France I would blame post ww2 soft power. The old cliché about French gents not speaking English is irrelevant for anybody under 40yo.

It’s interesting to see French word in English from the William the conqueror period, too. ( like “phrase” from above or the tired example “sheep” vs “mutton” )

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#77

Post by jvanderbot »

eru wrote: post #17
jvanderbot wrote: post #9

I am a mild pariah among my parent friends for suggesting that 'spanish immersion daycare' was a way of recruiting lower-cost childcare workers (in the USA). They're everywhere , and it seems they are the most common type of daycare, actually. (upper midwest, usa)

You say it like it's a bad thing. This is an awesome way to provide both an extra language when kids don't have much else to do and fit it easy to pick them up, _and_ it saves on costs? What could be better?

I'm only saying that the primary motivation for Spanish immersion, good or bad, is probably cheaper child care costs, for the center, not the parent. Our kids are in one. Or were, until we moved.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#78

Post by courgette »

torstenvl wrote: post #64
klodolph wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Turn of phrase” is an English idiom, but it sounds like it does not mean the same thing.

Le truc c'est qu' «une phrase» en français veut dire "a sentence" en anglais.

Oui, but I also forgot that “phrase” exists in English.

I grew to like English this way: massive corpus made of anglo-saxon plus French.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#79

Post by RajT88 »

AdrenalinMd wrote: post #50

As someone fluent in four languages*, I agree. I would even argue that the opposite of an advantage is true. Consider this: it adds unnecessary cognitive load. When trying to think of a word, it comes to you in four different languages, which isn't helpful! I speak four languages out of necessity, not by choice. When you can focus on fewer languages, your proficiency in them improves. Although I can speak four langua…

> Consider this: it adds unnecessary cognitive load. When trying to think of a word, it comes to you in four different languages, which isn't helpful!

This has been my experience as well. My native language is English, and I do just fine in it. But I've also studied a couple other languages, and when I try to put together sentences, whatever word is closest sometimes pops out.

I almost never find myself accidentally sticking English words into sentences, but I will frequently mix words from my second and third languages. It's brutal.

A friend of mine whose languages are Japanese, English, Spanish and Korean (in that order) told me that learning the third language is the hardest. Once you figure out how to stick to just one language at a time, learning more languages is a lot easier.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#80

Post by hackernewds »

eru wrote: post #17
jvanderbot wrote: post #9

I am a mild pariah among my parent friends for suggesting that 'spanish immersion daycare' was a way of recruiting lower-cost childcare workers (in the USA). They're everywhere , and it seems they are the most common type of daycare, actually. (upper midwest, usa)

You say it like it's a bad thing. This is an awesome way to provide both an extra language when kids don't have much else to do and fit it easy to pick them up, _and_ it saves on costs? What could be better?

better could be having a work life balance system or remote work setting where the child can grow up with the love and attention a caring mother could provide
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