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French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

theguardian.com

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Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#71

Post by zamadatix »

GuB-42 wrote: post #68
phnofive wrote: post #2

The legal system in the UK recognizes several rights against self-incrimination, but there is a carve-out for the per se crime of failing to disclose a key to encrypted information - punishable by years in prison. How is this different than refusing to tell where you've buried the bodies? Why should the police be permitted to assume you're guilty and in possession of vital information under certain circumstances?

It doesn't seem to be about self-incrimination. The way I understand it, they don't accuse him of being a terrorist, they are accusing him of having information about terrorists and refusing to release them. To follow your analogy, the police doesn't think you are the murderer, but they believe you know the location of the bodies and accuse you of covering for the murderer.

It's still self-incriminating to say you were guilty of covering for the murderer or, in this case, terrorist.

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#72

Post by game_the0ry »

This is a sign that governments and, by extension, people in power are very fragile and very scared. Like an animal backed into a corner, they're lashing out violently and defensively, bc they are afraid that accountability is coming.

There will certainly be more of this type of behavior, even in the US, and the rest of the world is about to realize why the US has the kind of constitution that it does.

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#73

Post by ravi-delia »

CaliforniaKarl wrote: post #52
devmunchies wrote: post #9

This is why passcodes are better than biometric auth. It’s easy for an officer to hold the phone up to your face.

No. Stop. You are giving a false sense of security, as it seems to me like you're applying US laws to the UK, which is wrong. In the US, you're correct that giving up a password is something understood to be protected under the 5th Amendment, whereas being forced to unlock by face or fingerprint is not[0]. In the UK, this is not the same. See point 59 of [1]: > The power to search anything which the person has with t…

Unless the parent edited, I don't believe they claimed it wasn't illegal. I mean we're here because the title of the article says as much. But you can pass any law you want, and it'll still be very easy to press a person's finger to a button against their will

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#74

Post by PeterisP »

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #40
PeterisP wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're probably treating it the same as refusing to open a safe given a valid warrant; the rights against self-incrimination do not extend to protecting the contents of your safe, drawers, private letters, etc, and also to the contents of your smartphone.

See, but if you refused to open a safe for the cops, their fallback would be to drill it, not incarcerate you for failure to disclose the combination. Under that precedence, the cops have the right to try and crack my phone's encryption, but not to compel me to give them my passwords.

But they can charge and punish you for refusing to open the safe, that's obstruction of justice even if they could drill it and drilled it.

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#75

Post by blibble »

negidius wrote: post #69
blibble wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the thing is it's not incontrovertible proof, it's "beyond reasonable doubt" the prosecution would show up with when you bought the phone, how many times you'd used it, that you used it 80 times in the last hour, and so on and it comes down to whether or not a jury would believe that you had really forgotten it (despite that evidence)

Which means that someone who forgets their passcode because of the stress of being arrested and threatened with years in prison could easily be wrongfully convicted. It's a horrible law, even for those who don't care about privacy.

I am not a fan of the RIP Act (and there's plenty more badness in there)

but playing devil's advocate, without this specific offence the disclosure sections would be completely ineffectual

(remember the UK also allows adverse inferences to be made from silence, it is not the US)

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#76

Post by counttheforks »

blibble wrote: post #59
negidius wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stress of being arrested and threatened with years in prison if you don't remember your passcode could very well cause someone to forget it.

the thing is it's not incontrovertible proof, it's "beyond reasonable doubt" the prosecution would show up with when you bought the phone, how many times you'd used it, that you used it 80 times in the last hour, and so on and it comes down to whether or not a jury would believe that you had really forgotten it (despite that evidence)

right, you are explaining why the law is ridiculous and unfair

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#77

Post by upofadown »

louloulou wrote: post #63
jmclnx wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could laugh, seems the US, UK and Australia are in a competition to see who can out do each other. What is it with English Speaking Countries ? I guess Canada is OK because of Quebec keeps them sane :)

Canada has the same shit, NZ too.

Apparently not for the Canadian case:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#Canada

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#78

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

sdfghswe wrote: post #35
OkayPhysicist wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can definitely see how instead of viewing a device as an extension of a suspect's mind, you can view it as just another piece of property. If you had a dairy noting where you buried the bodies, or some receipts for your illicit arms deals, locked in a closet somewhere, the cops could reasonably break in and search it, or more relevantly compel you to hand over the key. Now, I definitely prefer the US's stance of a…

> Now, I definitely prefer the US's stance of a password being illegal self-discrimination Is that true though? Never heard that before.

It's somewhat up in the air. The prevailing theory is that the 5th protects against compelling what amounts to testimony... but it's only been tested a few times in court, never by SCOTUS. With mixed results.

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#79

Post by barnabee »

ornel wrote: post #67

According to this tweet[0] citing a (locked) article, the arrested publisher was asked by police "Do you support president Macron? Have you participated in the recent demonstrations in France? What books will soon be published by La Fabrique?". Scary stuff [0] https://twitter.com/Mathieu2jean/status/1648394577449984014

Shameful. I cannot fathom how anyone in government or the police believes this (whatever they asked him, whatever they were told) is anywhere close to ok.
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