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Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

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Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#71
IMHO reading competency starts at home, not in the classroom. Kids need to be interested in reading, and that's up to the parents more than it is to the school.

My very unique / personal take. Have been doing sight words with my 5yo for the last two weeks. He just started his second term of prep (pre year 1). He's not advanced as far as I can't tell, but I'll tell you it's exhilarating to watch his progress. He absolutely loves the challenge of it. And he's already sounding out and reading short, repetitive books based on known words. He's a lucky kid for so many reasons. Not a great case in point for the same.

All kids are different, with unique needs, and schools should be expected to adapt to these. But it's a two way street. If an individual isn't reading by fourth grade, after four years of schooling, then something is going on .. either at home or in a cognitive sense. If a whole class isn't reading, then sure - look at the curriculum ... but there's probably something more systemic at play.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#72
post #58

All the teachers I know are pretty irritated by Sold a Story, mostly their criticisms are: - if you just teach phonics you aren't actually helping kids to read (they've tried) because reading is more than just sounds - Sold a Story omits basically any nuance for shock facts I also think it's important to point out that APM Reports isn't an independent journalistic outfit. They accept grants for specific research. In…

Well, yeah, teachers have been bamboozled.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#73
post #2

As someone who's both worked as a teacher and as a software engineer, my feeling is that what happened in reading education is roughly what engineers' jobs would be forced by their CTOs to use software methodologies and languages that came from their university professors who've never really spend much time (at least not in well over a decade if at all) doing actual salaried software development where code had to be…

Both of my parents learned to read at home, in poverty. Both had educated parents, who had been displaced by the events of the era. I learned to read at home. Both of my kids, likewise. It didn't even remotely occur to anybody in the family that learning to read was special, or that there might even be any way to teach it other than phonics. English has a phonetic alphabet after all, right? Moreover, learning to read…

>It didn't even remotely occur to anybody in the family that learning to read was special

As usual, it's much fuss about nothing. Same goes for financial discipline. There are no special techniques, unless one are dealing with special needs kids.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#74
post #52

What intrigues me here is if the same might have gone wrong with teaching people secondary languages. It's often seen as this big barrier to overcome, but you look at tools like Duolingo and they do this same "whole language" method instead of teaching people the phonics and letting them use that to fill out and learn how to read a foreign language using their skills to put words together, and instead they fall back…

I think your experience is atypical. Most students who learn a new language with a fairly "reasonable" alphabet like Korean or Russian find that to be the easiest part and remember most of the letters within a few days. I don't speak Greek but I've been there a few times and learned the alphabet just so that I could sort of read signs (forgot it now). As for Duolingo, is there any independent evidence that it's actua…

For clarity, the Ancient Greek alphabet was thought to me using a cue based method exclusively because well, it's ancient Greek, nobody talks ancient Greek anymore, it's considered a dead language (it's still very close to regular Greek in terms of alphabet though... but that wasn't a part of the education method - I will say that it helped out a lot when visiting Greece to be able to read the signs since the alphabet was still virtually identical with I think like, one extra character added over the centuries?).

The teacher did all the things you expect from a cue system - teach the students the mnemonics, instruct them how the characters are all named (because ancient Greek has a name for every character) and detail how they all looked, but there was never any conversation on how the language was actually spoken. You just had to kinda figure out what the words meant. Small aside, but we did get a phonetics lesson for Latin, to explain how the name of the Romans most famous field general, Ceasar, would eventually have his name used for the leaders of the Roman state. That word would then turn into the German word Kaiser, a word that would be used to describe a certain group of state leaders, specifically emperors (even in different languages with words like Czar being derivatives of it, with a similar pronunciation). It helped a lot to understand Latin by seeing how the pronunciation gradually evolved, even though it wasn't spoken anymore.

The only reason I actually ended up learning it was because my grade was failing and due to an administrative error, I could do a resit on an alphabet test I completely failed earlier in the year. So to prepare for that test, I decided to ignore pretty much every single mnemonic/letter name that the teacher had taught me and I just did... a straight mapping. I mapped every character in Greek to a letter similar in my native language. I had a couple of doubles but it did work. I put it together with a small word list that used most of the letters and just learned how to pronounce those words. Suddenly the alphabet clicked and that was in less than a week, after a year of failed cue-based teaching.

As for Duolingo - as far as I have tried (with Japanese), it's overly reliant on the flashcard method of learning languages. It felt very ineffective; you don't really engage with characters or words, you just learn how to fill out auto-generated sentences and how to pick the right translation from a set of 3. I don't think the issue is gamification, but rather the framework thats being used here. (Probably in part because this particular framework is easy to put into programming while "figure out the right phonetics and put those together to figure out words" is very difficult to gamify, since you're going to need to do correction based on similarity, which is very different from person to person.) I might try learning Japanese again - it's still a personal goal of mine - but Duolingo did not help much there.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#76
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UCL researchers are among 250 signatories to a letter which has been sent to education secretary Nadhim Zahawi, calling on the government to allow for a wider range of approaches to teaching reading, which would allow teachers to use their own judgment about which is best for their pupils. It doesn't say phonics doesn't work, it suggests phonics is only effective for a subgroup of pupils. Everyone has their own l…

There is pretty strong evidence[0] [1] [2] that phonics is a critical part of learning to read for everyone no matter who they are or what their personality is. It's not the only piece of the puzzle but if you leave it out you will handicap the student intended to or not. Without phonics when you encounter a new word you can't pronounce it. If you can't pronounce it you can't use it in conversation. You can't use it…

You and op are both correct. The problems are teaching only phonics (which a lot of SOR advocates want) and not teaching phonics at all (which happens in a fair number of classrooms).

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#77

IMHO reading competency starts at home, not in the classroom. Kids need to be interested in reading, and that's up to the parents more than it is to the school. My very unique / personal take. Have been doing sight words with my 5yo for the last two weeks. He just started his second term of prep (pre year 1). He's not advanced as far as I can't tell, but I'll tell you it's exhilarating to watch his progress. He absol…

> that's up to the parents more than it is to the school.

The reality is that some parents simply do not have the time and resources to provide this sort of support. The purpose of our educational system is to educate kids, not to supervise them while their parents do so.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#78
I think if you did a study of Agile vs Waterfall and then took out all the nuance and then wrote an angry podcast about one side or the other it would be somewhat equivalent to this. i.e. reducing complex things (like project managment or teaching) to 'this way is wrong other way is right'. The skills/experience of the teachers/project managers are probably the biggest factor

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#79
post #76
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is pretty strong evidence[0] [1] [2] that phonics is a critical part of learning to read for everyone no matter who they are or what their personality is. It's not the only piece of the puzzle but if you leave it out you will handicap the student intended to or not. Without phonics when you encounter a new word you can't pronounce it. If you can't pronounce it you can't use it in conversation. You can't use it…

You and op are both correct. The problems are teaching only phonics (which a lot of SOR advocates want) and not teaching phonics at all (which happens in a fair number of classrooms).

Exactly. You also need to learn word definitions as well as grammar and sentence structure. Leave out any of the pieces of the puzzle and you are handicapping the student.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#80
I just listened to this podcast a few weeks ago. What really struck me was just how obviously wrong the Guided Reading curriculum and three cueing theory was even just on its face, and how many people went along with replacing phonics with Guided Reading despite that.

For example, the podcast recounts a Guided Reading lesson where the teacher covers up the words the kids are supposed to be reading with a piece of tape and tells them to guess what the word is without seeing it. That feels so obviously dumb that there's no way anyone could have been fooled into thinking that was a superior method of instruction than phonics, right? Surely the podcast has to be exaggerating? If not, that's a level of stupidity that's actually high enough to make me angry.

Same thing with the idea that people read based on context (three cuing). Like, sure context can be a component of reading, but it's trivially disproven as the primary mechanism with a simple string of random words like: nanny overlying identify crinkly eats reunion. Is that hard to read? Obviously not, so clearly context isn't that important for strong readers, and teaching kids to guess words based on context rather than teaching them to actually read the words is dumb. You shouldn't need a scientific study to figure that out.

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