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There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

toolguyd.com

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Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#71

Post by anfilt »

gertlex wrote: post #33
halestock wrote: post #5

Vendor lock-in. If I buy a Makita drill that comes with a universal battery, I'm just as likely (all other things being equal) to buy a DeWalt or Milwaukee circular saw as another Makita. But if my drill batteries only work with Makita products, I have a big incentive to stick with that brand.

Yeah, but you can use those Makita batteries to power a lawn mower, or a microwave! (I'm not joking) (specifically 18V; there's also a smaller hand drill from Makita with 12V batteries that I have too) My take: The situation could definitely be better, but it's also pretty nice compared to the NiCD days of 20 years ago. Caveat: I only just got in on the battery powered tools game in the past 6 months. I went corded f…

More like over 40 years ago for NiCD. Makita has been making cordless tools since 1978. Funnily they still sell those batteries for those old tools today.

But yea they did just announce a micro-wave.

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#72

Post by jacknews »

version_five wrote: post #11

Vendor lock in is obviously a side effect, and there are consumer- hostile reasons why companies like proprietary batteries. But fundamentally the battery shape and power characteristics as well as the charging are still areas where companies can innovate and differentiate themselves. I'd rather have to choose a brand than get some out of date, un-ergonomic "approved" battery and connector that I have to use with my…

Why can't companies innovate within a standard, and indeed innovate the standard itself, like usb, ethernet, etc?

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#73

Post by tchvil »

glasss wrote: post #26

First time seeing this blog and it seems like they're trying too hard to give the benefit of doubt here. The list of concerns / drawbacks, particularly the reliability of performance concern, may be valid, but consumers deal with these already with every other battery powered device. A cheap USB charger or cable can dramatically effect your charging speed, a cheap AA battery may reduce your runtime, etc. It feels lik…

As pointed in the article, battery packs aren't that expensive.

When my last of 3 Makita battery pack died I found reasonably priced battery holders with a PCB: https://a.aliexpress.com/_EjvvWY7

10 high current LG 18650 cells per pack.

Plus a cheap but good enough spot welder($65 I can reuse), some nickel strips and I ended up at about the same cost as the original ones on material alone.

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#74

Post by maxerickson »

rektide wrote: post #66
glasss wrote: post #26

First time seeing this blog and it seems like they're trying too hard to give the benefit of doubt here. The list of concerns / drawbacks, particularly the reliability of performance concern, may be valid, but consumers deal with these already with every other battery powered device. A cheap USB charger or cable can dramatically effect your charging speed, a cheap AA battery may reduce your runtime, etc. It feels lik…

The world after usb-pd looks so different. Everything used to be expensive bulky & proprietary. It turns out usb-pd works pretty damned well. It'll be a while before anything meaningful happens for this market though. 100w would power a huge range of tools but not all. 240w would be great, work for a huge range of tools with ton of overhead. But the lack probably has a much lower voltage that would need to be up-conv…

Does it particularly make sense to link new DC power standards to USB?

Like I expect I'd rather have Bluetooth control over stuff plugged into the wall vs having a combined communication/high(er) power cable.

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#75

Post by rektide »

maxerickson wrote: post #74
rektide wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world after usb-pd looks so different. Everything used to be expensive bulky & proprietary. It turns out usb-pd works pretty damned well. It'll be a while before anything meaningful happens for this market though. 100w would power a huge range of tools but not all. 240w would be great, work for a huge range of tools with ton of overhead. But the lack probably has a much lower voltage that would need to be up-conv…

Does it particularly make sense to link new DC power standards to USB? Like I expect I'd rather have Bluetooth control over stuff plugged into the wall vs having a combined communication/high(er) power cable.

I'd love for there to be some competition. Absolutely.

This submission is about cordless power tools batteries, so that somewhat affects the scope. In general, cords can be super dangerous & limiting for power tools, so battery based has naturally really taken the heck over, for all kinds of good reasons. Even still, I think the questioning is fine & good, could apply to this segment.

Bluetooth is a bit hard because of pairing. Where-as a physical connection is unmistakable & zero additional effort.

I'd also point out, we're still bloody fucking awful, just dogshit terrible, about using USB. USB-hid has really nice specs for batteries & chargers to offer telemetry. Our wall chargers could report tons of stats on what they think is happening. Our batteries could self report all kind of stats. There's no good reason we have simply ignored the longstanding spec for so long, made such & continue to make such poor use of USB, other than abysmal expectations & abysmal delivery. (well, for a while, usb charging's high power modes only worked if there wasnt any data, and that was a dumb if valid reason).

It would be great to see usb-pd batteries keep winning and wireless telemetry.

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#76

Post by sgc »

SAI_Peregrinus wrote: post #69
sgc wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, why is anybody arguing it is not just about lock in, when their specs are similar enough that they are interchangeable - more a rarity than the norm in the realm of electronics? It is a pertinent thing to point out, since if the tools work just fine using each other's batteries, any other answer rings hollow in light of it. So, please don't TFA me, it is unsavory and adds absolutely nothing to the conversation.

The Torque Test Channel has done several tests with a single tool using different batteries, comparing (usually) the torque the tool can produce with each. E.g. this[1] with a DeWalt impact driver. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsZE86NFG4M

Well I spent too much time on that channel! For that specific test, he is testing no-name batteries against name brand. But there are adapters like [1] that allow you to use another name brand battery in your tool. That test would be the one that matters. Also, if all tools used a standard battery format, there would be much, much higher quality off brand batteries just because aftermarket products for improving performance would make more sense (along with the sloppy cheap stuff, of course).

[1] https://www.amazon.com/ZLWAWAOL-Battery-Converter-Compatible...

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#77

Post by theshrike79 »

Protip, you can order converters from pretty much any power tool battery to any other brand from Aliexpress (or from a reseller/dropshipper on Amazon/eBay).

I sold all my Ryobi stuff except for their air compressor and switched to AEG. Bought an AEG->Ryobi adapter for, I think, 10€ and it works just fine with the Ryobi compressor.

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#78

Post by StueyGuyd »

glasss wrote: post #26

First time seeing this blog and it seems like they're trying too hard to give the benefit of doubt here. The list of concerns / drawbacks, particularly the reliability of performance concern, may be valid, but consumers deal with these already with every other battery powered device. A cheap USB charger or cable can dramatically effect your charging speed, a cheap AA battery may reduce your runtime, etc. It feels lik…

It's not that I wanted to give brands the benefit of the doubt, but that I believe there are other hurdles and significant obstacles independent of corporate profit considerations.

Many consumers are familiar with the concept of Ah (amp-hours) as akin to a car's gas tank, where the more amp-hours a battery has, the longer it can power a device. If you buy a video camera, the brand's 4Ah battery should allow for double the recording time as their 2Ah battery. Right?

Which would you rather buy, a 6Ah cordless power tool battery for $79, or a 5Ah battery for $89? The batteries are the same size and weight. Depending on the application, the 5Ah battery might outlast the 6Ah in use.

You're at the home center and see three power tool batteries on the shelf - all are 18V and rated at 3Ah, but they're different physical sizes. Which is better?

With a bit of research on your phone, you learn that the batteries are built with 5x 18650, 5x 21700, and 10x 18650 Li-ion battery cells, respectively. All three 3Ah batteries are the same price. Does this help you choose?

Power tool battery selection is not as intuitive as looking at a 20W USB charger and simply knowing it will charge devices at a faster rate than a 5W charger. There are enough "what battery should I get?" questions in my inbox and messages folders, as well as all over online forums, for me to believe the confusion has gotten worse over the years as new overlapping technologies were introduced.

Many users don't fully understand that there can be huge differences in power capabilities. A 1.3Ah battery and a 12Ah battery of the same voltage and cordless system are going to deliver very different levels of power. A lot of tool users learn this the hard way. It's not their fault, as a 12Ah battery might be simply advertised as delivering more than 9X the runtime.

With many more options available, I'm sure many users will pair cheaper brand name batteries with pro-level tools and expect everything to work well together. Who will they blame for poor performance? Themselves and their choices? The tool brand? Or the battery brand?

In my opinion, if user experience concerns can be addressed, and numerous technical obstacles flattened, companies "making profits until they get regulated" will be the easiest hurdle to overcome.

If you want to better understand why replacement batteries cost so much, look at different brands' sales and promotions. The Makita XGT circular saw kit (GSR01M1) is $299 right now across authorized dealers, and you get a free extra battery. The same 4Ah battery (BL4040) is priced at $199 to $219, each. So that's $299 for the kit with a total of 2 batteries plus a saw, charger, and tool bag, or $398 for just 2 batteries.

Based on this type of retail math, I'd say replacement battery prices are set to balance out the promos.

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#79

Post by oliwarner »

Capitalism.

Let's not waste a thousand words when one will do. It's really that simple.

All these batteries are just 18/36/54 Volt configurations of 18650 cells (with a few exceptions). Some have $0.50 undercharge management chips, some don't. The difference is the mounts and pinouts and they are only distinctive to avoid interoperability.

They do this to keep you brand-loyal.

As soon as you buy a kit (eg driver, drill, battery and charger) for a knock down rate you're much more likely to buy other "bare" tools from the same range because they're compatible with the expensive battery you've just bought. It's cheaper to stay loyal. As soon as you go pro, that loyalty is magnified because you need multiple batteries ready to go. Owning and charging that redundancy across multiple platforms is a lot of overhead.

They could all use the same batteries and chargers. They choose not to.

Bosch has made a common platform (now called AMPShare?) but the buy-in is limited (mostly smaller, mostly German toolmakers) and Bosch seems to do best out of this, but it's a start.

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#80

Post by maxerickson »

rektide wrote: post #75
maxerickson wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it particularly make sense to link new DC power standards to USB? Like I expect I'd rather have Bluetooth control over stuff plugged into the wall vs having a combined communication/high(er) power cable.

I'd love for there to be some competition. Absolutely. This submission is about cordless power tools batteries, so that somewhat affects the scope. In general, cords can be super dangerous & limiting for power tools, so battery based has naturally really taken the heck over, for all kinds of good reasons. Even still, I think the questioning is fine & good, could apply to this segment. Bluetooth is a bit hard because…

Oh, the Bluetooth thing was just an aside about not caring about having communications on the same cable as power for higher power devices, I don't think it's very relevant to power tools.

My point was more about not having the higher power delivery implementation tied to a complicated, relatively expensive, high speed data bus.

The reason stuff doesn't do any reporting is that people mostly don't care and it would add some small incremental cost, it's not a big mystery.

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