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What you give up by moving into engineering management

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Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#71
post #34
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your only job as a manager is to protect and develop the team under you. That sounds like the philosophy of a tumor. Clearly, a manager has to care about other things as well, such as - how can my team contribute to the business in the most valuable way?

A manager should have a view about the business, and they must work to give their team the evidence and method of thinking to grasp why that view is correct. Only then will the team properly focus on the goal and execute effectively. This is part of developing the team. "If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and e…

> If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea.

And yet, actual shipbuilding operations look, and have historically looked, much more like the former than the latter.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#72
post #43

The majority of the content and comments on HN tell about the benefits of remaining an IC and not moving into management. Why do people need to convince each other _not_ to move into management by content like this? To get a balanced view - what are the advantages of becoming a manager? What are the rewarding parts of managing people?

There is a advantage I see very few people talk about publicly but saw all the time: no more pressure to run the dev skills treadmill. No more need to keep up with the latest JavaScript frameworks, or the latest micro-weave clustered engine architecture fad of the day. No more signalling technical superiority for promotions.

Many dev managers breathe a sigh of relief since they feel they "no longer need to keep up" and let their skills atrophy.

Being a manager in a company with more than 25 developers is a new arena that is often even more competitive, but the rules are totally different. No one gives a shit if you're the best engineer in the room, but if you still want promotions you need to learn all the new ways to show your value. It becomes about telling the most compelling stories, doing great research to prove your points, using charisma to charm the right people, and being clever or lucky to lead projects you can turn around or have a big impact. The things that will get you promotions as a manger are rarely tied to team performance, and often tied to people's _perception_ of their performance. I realize this sounds cynical, but it's just the reality of how politics is played, and management almost always is playing politics.

I was a manager for many years, and then director of several teams for a few years. I was next in line to be CTO of a 1000+ developer company when I walked away to become an IC again.

I just missed it too much.

However, I'm very social and love people. I love scheming new ways to do things or improve things. I really enjoyed one on ones with most employees (which was good, at one point for a year I was managing 25 people, and one on ones took 15-20 hours of my week!). Sometimes it was terrible, mostly with high performers who resented the process or people who were quiet quitting. Most of the time it was people who just wanted to get better, and I loved helping them scheme out how I could help. I did everything I could to help my people succeed and get promotions, and they often were loyal and hard-working in return.

I love building a team of people who are gelled together, who feel a real sense of belonging. I very much missed the fast dopamine feedback of TDD, but I learned to enjoy slower metrics like:

- reducing WIP limits (down to 0.5 stories per dev, started at 3.1 per dev when I started)

- increasing dev retention rates (my teams were up to 6 years average! It was 2.3 when I started!)

- reducing dev weekly meeting minute averages (my teams down to 3 hours of meetings per week average! It was 15 hours when I started!)

- prioritizing technical debt payoff (it was 50% of the time when I left, up from 20%)

- ensuring all devs had unstructured research time (10% weekly)

- ensuring teams prioritized high value efforts like CI/CD, one button deployments, etc

- making my product high profit margin (it was 100% ROI three years running, up from 30% when I started)

Building a place devs loved to work and wanted to stay was extremely rewarding.

Ultimately, the politics of the boardroom and upper management really ground me down. Eventually, the company wanted to move development to India, with me managing larger teams there while reducing my American staff, and I just got burnt out and left.

There's a universe where I manage a team again, and possibly will be doing so this year, but for now I'm loving getting to play with tailwind, digging into vite, and cranking out out CRUD forms.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#73
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have to own the company’s message to your reports (and others) even if you disagree with it or don’t know how it came to be. Why?

In the one bit of company management training I got, the company lawyer explained: As a manager, you represent the company and its interests 24/7. You can try to help an employee but only so far as it doesn't affect the company's bottom line. There was a lot more and it was eye-opening.

When the company lawyer is teaching management how to manage, the company culture has lost all positive vitality. As a first-line manager, my reports and my boss understand that my job is to align in both directions. We're in this together. At times I have to help our team understand that they need to make some sacrifice for the sake of the business, and at times I have to help my management understand that the business needs to make some sacrifice for the sake of the team members.

I'm trying to build a culture of loyalty where we take care of each other and where people can stay and continue growing for a decade or more. The day my management tells me the company's bottom line matters more than the people who deliver that bottom line is the day I'm out the door, and my team with me if I can swing it.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#74
post #19

The biggest thing most managers give up is their mind. You start using corporate jargon. You become more authoritarian. You embrace careerism (a term I invented to describe people who erroneously conflate rising in corporate rank with happiness). You quickly learn that no one understands anything about the people or the business--and that all decisions are made by gut, cherry picked data, and story-telling. Suddenly,…

[deleted]

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#75
post #19

The biggest thing most managers give up is their mind. You start using corporate jargon. You become more authoritarian. You embrace careerism (a term I invented to describe people who erroneously conflate rising in corporate rank with happiness). You quickly learn that no one understands anything about the people or the business--and that all decisions are made by gut, cherry picked data, and story-telling. Suddenly,…

>careerism (a term I invented....)

You most certainly didn't invent the term "careerism."

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#76
post #30
post #19

The biggest thing most managers give up is their mind. You start using corporate jargon. You become more authoritarian. You embrace careerism (a term I invented to describe people who erroneously conflate rising in corporate rank with happiness). You quickly learn that no one understands anything about the people or the business--and that all decisions are made by gut, cherry picked data, and story-telling. Suddenly,…

> Your only job as a manager is to protect and develop the team under you. That sounds like the philosophy of a tumor. Clearly, a manager has to care about other things as well, such as - how can my team contribute to the business in the most valuable way?

[deleted]

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#77
post #63
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, no knows anything about parenting. Properly considered, it is the most difficult and intellectually challenging task conceivable. “Here, take this tabula rasa child and, over the course of many years, with virtually no timely feedback about the impact of any of your actions, raise a fully formed rational adult capable of effectively dealing with the problem of human survival on a planet incredibly hostile…

Most children grow up to be decent human beings despite parents having no clue. I don't think you can do much for them, they do it all by themselves... just don't destroy them by being a horrible person and treat them with respect, even knowing you have all the power in the relationship.

Very true, and we are mostly formed by our genetics, and it really helps to keep that in mind.

But as parents that doesn't stop us from overly attributing everything bad that our kids do to our own bad parenting.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#78
Your self-respect?

Honestly, going from contributing actual results, you are now just measuring results and browbeating intelligent folk into producing more results.

Simultaneously you find yourself trying to maximize your budget and minimize your deliverables to make numbers look good, while understanding that both these things are bad for the customers and bad for the stockholders.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#79
one things that's missing is the ability to ignore politics. you have to know what hills to die on, when to enforce boundaries, when to back off, etc. also, having to make decisions, argue for them, and be accountable to them, without fully understanding all the details. I found these things to be far and away the most stressful parts of management.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#80

After being drafted into Engineering Management from 3 IC roles in a row, I decided to jump in with enthusiasm. My primary motivation is that I've had bad engineering managers and a couple of great ones and I want to be like the great ones. Along the way I have studied a lot about how to manage people in a positive way. I learned coaching and that has helped me help others grow in their career which I find very rewar…

> Honestly, it's a completely different job as an Engineering Manager vs being an IC

This is the right perspective, in my opinion. The way I think of it is that its more like you are the coach/manager of a sports team and not a player. Sometimes the best players do not make good coaches and sometimes players that are mediocre/bad are really great coaches/managers. Its a different role. If you approach it with the mindset that your role as coach/manager is to help your team's outcomes be the highest they can be (which will differ based on the make-up of your team) then you (and your team and your company) will do well.

In business/management terms this is called servant leadership - serving others to help them grow and succeed. Traditional leadership is typically the accumulation and exercising of power to "move up" a hierarchy - much like in the animal world with wolves or lions, etc.

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