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Killing sparrows led to famines in China

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Re: Killing sparrows led to famines in China

#71
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like an unfalsifiable claim. Do you have any evidence supporting it, or are you "just asking questions"? Edit: I deserve to have been downvoted, I have misinterpreted the context of "right" in the parent post and they have educated me with articles in turn

In addition, do check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Zhixin , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lin_Zhao , and https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/politics-guilt-092820... . Mind you, the "crimes" these people "committed" were deemed serious by the progressives during those times. Yeah, so much for the left wanting to censor information.

Thanks, I did not know it was literally called the "Anti-Rightist" campaign and I see I misunderstood the comment and implications you originally made. Sorry for that.

Re: Killing sparrows led to famines in China

#72

I've read about this several times, and I'm not surprised the story is popular. Many people see China as a foe, so they like to smear it. That's alright, but anyone should be extra cautious when a story is just what most people want. Stories tend to inflate and bend to please their auditory. For instance, consider the claim that China had to import 250,000 sparrows from the USSR. Where does it come from? This article…

Ah yes, the "fake news" defense.

Re: Killing sparrows led to famines in China

#73

This is why I was concerned when I heard Google, of all companies, released lab grown mosquitos to wipe them out. I'm curious what happened with this effort. It's not exactly a vote of confidence when the other guy trying to do this is Bill Gates.

"released lab grown mosquitos to wipe them out"

Spoiler alert. We lose fish. All fresh water fish. Not as bad as fucking with bees. But a close second.

Re: Killing sparrows led to famines in China

#74
post #58
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. Climate change is a multiplier or interwoven with lot of those other problems. Plus burning fossil fuels is so central to our economies that we haven't even stopped co2 emissions rising. If we'd actually focused on co2, rather than the less than minimum effort made so far, then maybe there'd be more space for the other problems. Instead this one problem looms larger and larger.

Look into the work of Tony Seba: renewable are on an exponential growth. Tesla Master plan 3 highlight the step needed to fully transition Bjorn Longburgh explain in his book and interview what are the different priorities and costs associated with the different way we can do good in the world. I am super into renewable, but climate change will not be a problem at the current speed of innovation. We should focus on m…

Does he have a good answer for the problem of overgeneration during the summer months, and undergeneration in winter? If you run the numbers on battery energy density, cost, and what it takes to run an efficient heat pump, it seems clear that renewables alone aren’t quite a solution yet. I’d love to be wrong, though.

Re: Killing sparrows led to famines in China

#75

How does the targetting of the sparrow species for annihilation in China compare to the post-Columbus ongoing deforestation in the Americas's? Xi does have the ecological health of the environment on his policy priority list which is a change from previous leadership driven by slavery to economic devop. There are documentaries on little birds by the sea. They have their place.

> Xi does have the ecological health of the environment on his policy priority list And as a consequence of this policy, how many new coal power plants has china opened? https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/china-permits-two-... .

I think that's the wrong question.

How many fewer coal plants were opened than would have been opened without that policy?

Re: Killing sparrows led to famines in China

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the ideas of communism is what cause people to kill off sparrows or was it just bad information and bad/incomplete research on what role sparrows played

>So the ideas of communism is what cause people to kill off sparrows or was it just bad information and bad/incomplete research on what role sparrows played We can try this framing in another 100 yr drought scenario and see what gets blamed. "So the ideas of capitalism is what caused the Dust Bowl or was it just bad information and bad/incomplete research on what role grass/trees played when creating vast plots of dr…

Sounds to me like it was information

Re: Killing sparrows led to famines in China

#78

Someone once commented to me that rather than blaming Mao personally, the blame for the negative consequences of The Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution should be placed on the systemic forces that legitimised the absence of domain experts in policy making. It's a nice sentiment but I have a gut feeling that these kinds of frameworks - where blame is taken away from people and attributed to abstract concepts -…

Official CCP position on was Mao 70% right and 30% wrong. There wasn't lack of domain experts per say, rather Mao pursued modernization agendas at aggressive rate, one that traded lives for progress. 4 pests / killing sparrows didn't lead to famines, the bureaucracy trying to hit Maos KPIs did. Which does not necessarily lead to...

>worse outcomes long-term

Contrary hot take. PRC post WW2 traded lives for progress was net good for long-term outcomes. Mao was bad statesman for right goals, he was excessive and did the hard things sometimes poorly, but it was important to do them none the less. The great leap forward killed millions, but ensured PRC also had the highest industrial capacity amongst developing peers after. Cultural revolution broke traditional social structures = 90%+ unified polity, speaking one language. Purging intelligentsia also overkill, but still had STEM priorities right, both nukes + first satellite developed in this era. In aggregate, disruptions setup/enabled PRC to exploit mass modernization efforts, established industrial base, and plenty of fungible bodies within a few generations instead of century+. Add oil on cramming developement atrocities to develop. Incidentally this is why pluralism of India and old practices (caste) etc is holding up development, India systemically couldn't destroy to renew, now it’s dragged down by the baggage causing 100s of millions of avoidable deaths and even more bodies with stunted development - a few decades of prolonged developing world infant mortality and food insecurity adds up. Treating human capital as actual capital is not nice, but it's effective.

Hard to say if this was actually his thinking at the time, but he's also known for declaring: "I’m not afraid of nuclear war ... China has a population of 600 million; even if half of them are killed, there are still 300 million people left."

Re: Killing sparrows led to famines in China

#79
Worth noting that poorly planned "pest eradication" campaigns were a global thing. Here in California they paid bounties on a rather wide variety of perceived pest animals.

Alaska actually had a bald eagle bounty, as the hunters and fishermen didn't want competition: https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=baldeagle.printer...

Re: Killing sparrows led to famines in China

#80

Someone once commented to me that rather than blaming Mao personally, the blame for the negative consequences of The Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution should be placed on the systemic forces that legitimised the absence of domain experts in policy making. It's a nice sentiment but I have a gut feeling that these kinds of frameworks - where blame is taken away from people and attributed to abstract concepts -…

Don't blame Mao, blame the system Mao built!

He was a delusional psychopat that was happy to kill as many people as he could
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