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Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

willbrownsberger.com

71–80 of 95 posts

Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heat Pump efficiency is inversely linked to outside air temp, the colder it is outside the less efficient the heat pump is as there is less heat energy to extract from the outside to "pump" into the inside... Fixing is called physics... I am not sure magic words on a page (regulation) will "fix" physics....

It's really difficult to understand what is going on with this politician's heat pump though because we are lacking a lot of basic information. A high quality minisplit system should top out at a COP of over 3.5 and be above 2 down to single digit F temperatures. E.g., https://www.mitsubishitechinfo.ca/sites/default/files/SB_PVA... has a COP of 2.17 at 5F. It seems like there is more to the story. A small duct/high v…

Well looking up the specs for an Amana Budget system [1] that is more typical for what you would find in American home (mini Splits are rare here, and normally installed in Garages and Shops, not primary residences ) 1.5 Ton unit COP drops to 1.4 @ -5 and only matches the efficiency of the minisplit you linked @ 10 degrees

if I look at the high end an Amana System[2] and 2 Ton unit (which is more common size in the US) COP drops to 1.7 @ -5 and drops to about 2 at single digits.

[1] https://www.amana-hac.com/pdfviewer.aspx?pdfurl=docs/default...

[2]https://www.amana-hac.com/pdfviewer.aspx?pdfurl=docs/default...

Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#72
post #65
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? The real heating demand can be observed up front and with the typical (or even exact) weather you can easily determine the efficiency of the heat pump. Yeah expect some inaccuracies, but not this huge

My weather person can't even predict what Thursday is going to do. You want accurate predictions for all of winter? That's why I mentioned solar. It's the same, but with sunlight.

no predictions necessary, just check out the data from last year

Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#73
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because flare fittings are a concession to make install cheaper, not better. R410a and other similar refrigerants are very high pressure, and the fittings undergo significant thermal cycles. Flared copper tube is a bad design choice. IMO, going back to brazed tubing connections is the most rational choice.

FWIW, I just had a heat pump installed, and the installer brazed all copper fittings. Are flared fittings often used for these installs?

Most mini splits use flairs, and in the context of heat pumps in the US, I see Minisplits most commonly discussed. The whole house condensers still use brazed connections.

Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#74
post #60
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because flare fittings are a concession to make install cheaper, not better. R410a and other similar refrigerants are very high pressure, and the fittings undergo significant thermal cycles. Flared copper tube is a bad design choice. IMO, going back to brazed tubing connections is the most rational choice.

brazed tubes can leak as well. I had that happen in my last house. Little leaks are hard to find, the first time I had the system refilled the tech couldn't find anything and put some sealer in. The next time the tech did the same and was disconnecting the fill lines when he saw a dark spot, then he emptied the lines and did the proper fix.

Sure, anything can leak. Brazed fittings when executed properly and tested are much less likely to _start leaking_. the issue is that the flares have a tendency to work harden during the constant vibration and thermal cycling and eventually give up.

Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#75

This is why I couple my heat pump operation to solar output from my panels. Any time I can fully self power it is a 100% win. During the darkest and coldest months however, the existing gas boiler takes the lead. My heat pump is 5 years old and has never leaked refrigerant. I also collect the condensate for the gardens.

>> During the darkest and coldest months however... How cold are the coldest months?

http://www.worldclimate.com/climate/us/massachusetts/framing...

The averages do not illustrate the extremes very well, we see many days where the nighttime temperatures never rise above 0F.

Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#76
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really difficult to understand what is going on with this politician's heat pump though because we are lacking a lot of basic information. A high quality minisplit system should top out at a COP of over 3.5 and be above 2 down to single digit F temperatures. E.g., https://www.mitsubishitechinfo.ca/sites/default/files/SB_PVA... has a COP of 2.17 at 5F. It seems like there is more to the story. A small duct/high v…

Elsewhere he says that his heat pumps are two Daikin RJQ18TAVJUA: https://ashp.neep.org/#!/product/56878/7/25000///0 . Much of the other information is probably available elsewhere on his site: https://willbrownsberger.com/heat-pumps/ As I mention in another comment, I think the base of the problem is that the heat pumps he has installed are simply inappropriate for his climate.

> I think the base of the problem is that the heat pumps he has installed are simply inappropriate for his climate.

The question is whether there is such a thing as a heat pump that's appropriate for use in the Northeastern US. It seems unlikely to me that someone with this person's level of engagement would have stupidly chosen to install the wrong kind of heat pump or chosen an installer incapable of recommending the best options.

I live in New York State and the government is nearing the point of banning gas installations in new construction here. I have yet to see any real cost benefit analysis for such a policy in a state with such cold winters.

Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#77
post #42

I wonder if we will ever see them switch to R-1234YF refrigerant. "While R-134a has a Global Warming Potential of 1300, R-1234yf’s GWP is less than 1." The only issue is the higher pressures and the fact that it's somewhat flammable might be why. I will say, my heat pump dryer, while it has removed some buttons from shirts, has exceeded my expectations on energy usage. It's night and day compared to my toaster I had…

I'm not sure if you will ever see that, the EU is currently trying to band all flourinated hydrocarbons, right in the middle of the 'we all need a heatpump' run. The only "viable" refrigerants after that will be CO_2, propane and ammonia. The "viable" is in scare-quotes because all of them are kind of nasty, CO_2 and ammonia are quite poisonous, CO_2 is inefficient or unusable for the temperature range in question, a…

Is propane that bad? We have propane plumbed throughout houses everywhere here in the us, and while accidents happen they are extremely rare.

I would think that with a closed loop system the risk of a serious problem would be quite low.

Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#78
I think too many do not understand one point of the Green New Deal, perhaps because that point is NOT advertised: convergence toward electricity it's not different than convergence toward IP, it means choosing a tech we need anyway while not the cheapest and use it for almost anything cutting much costs.

For instance a heat pump have much less raw materials and need far less high costs alloys than a gas heating system, essentially is cheaper to be produced, and if we can stay on electricity only we can spare the maintenance and expansion costs of gas/oil/* distribution networks.

Try to compare classical mechanical clocks vs modern electronic ones: the mechanical one it's far more costly per single unit, the electronic one cost next to nothing per single unit. For EVs it's not different: they have much less parts, less special alloys, less precision needed to produce them.

Heat pumps and EVs have both evolution margins, while classic ICEs and gas heating systems have already reached a sort of evolution plateau.

Those are the reasons of the Green New Deal: ecology is advertised as the only reason, in reality is a MARGINAL reason, the main reason is reduce much the demand of raw materials (once the transition will be done, of course) and lower much overall production costs. I imaging such reasons are not advertised because most of the benefit will go to those how steer the transition, not to those who pay it. But that's is and understand it and it's need means also steer the actual transition in a way more interesting to the people than a very small cohort of cleptocrats.

Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#79
post #38
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and could even work when the power goes out. AFAIK gas furnaces still need electricity for the fans to work. When you have no electricity you at best have a glorified fireplace. It's probably going to be a worse than a regular fireplace because it's not designed to output heat to its surroundings.

The fan of a furnace takes little power. It can be run off of a small generator, which ~every homeowner in New England has. A heat pump cannot run off a small generator.

Two notes: in a modern insulated home in not so cold climate 1kW absorbed is enough to heat a home with -20℃ outside, with is still far more than a simple fan but a power level a classic small generator can provide. The second note is that if you get gas from pipes the supplier need electricity to pump it, so it might have autonomous power or not, you can't be sure.

As a safeguard I prefer a classic wood burning stove, witch is far from being comfy but works alone, reliably and I can stock enough woods or emergency source it almost anywhere...

Living in the French Alps I do not know much about New England homes (insulation, ventilation, power system, ...) but IME gas heating systems are in the mean LESS reliable than heat pumps and electricity + wood is the combo to be comfy normally and backed up in case of trouble.

Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#80
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would assume the team knows the products they are installing

Bad assumption. It’s like expecting framers to know the ins and outs of LVL production. They’re there to put widget A in widget B, according to the instructions.

That's a fairly inappropriate comparison in level of expertise necessary to design a system: LVL beams are picked by structural engineers, not by framers who generally install them where they're needed, based on a structural design which they have no say in because load calculations aren't a framer's job.

HVAC installers are not merely system assembly specialists, they're system design specialists as well in nearly all cases. Or at the very least they outsource HVAC system design to experts who are familiar with required air flow, static pressure, air changes, condensation formation and evacuation, and yes of course whether the system is appropriate for cold climates (cold climate heat pumps are notably different from temperate or hot climate ones: coils are larger to capture more heat from the air outside temperatures are very low); they have different refrigerant systems; and way more insulation to prevent the cold affecting operation; some even incorporate resistive heating elements... or a gas furnace in cases where their efficiency would drop below an acceptable threshold.

One of the biggest and most important part of an HVAC system design is sizing for climate and dwelling. It should be extremely suspicious to any installer that their design system efficiency would be so much higher than the real world system performs.

I'd be shocked if professional HVAC installers couldn't spit out several reasons why the system might be performing so poorly just by reading this blog post. Notably the absurd assertion that the installers were professionals despite wildly overpromising and underdelivering. Some contractors acting professionally doesn't make them professionals.

As others point out in this thread, implementing a system that meets the stated design goals roughly on target is what a professional does. I've seen some absurd lambasting of PV solar installs as an example of empty promises. Again, those are tell-tale signs of deficiencies, not an indictment of the underlying technology.

Which is the most irresponsible part of this senator's post. Given your post and prominence, the least you could do before publishing something like this is check your basic assumptions: that the installer did a fine job.

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