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If you're using Node.js, you're doing life wrong

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Re: If you're using Node.js, you're doing life wrong

#71

Post by AdrianRossouw »

nephics wrote: post #56
andrewvc wrote: post #21

I'm really pretty anti-node, but this article isn't very good. The concerns here are mixed up and not very thorough. All these points need graphs, charts, something solid to anchor them to. This is the sort of article that polarizes, but doesn't add to the discussion. It starts off strong talking about a high bug count, but never gets into specifics there. As far as scaling across cores goes, it's disingenuous to sug…

Unfortunately, this way of stating unqualified arguments as basis for reasoning is quite prevalent on the Internet. Keeping it to node.js bashing, this guy takes the discussion to a slightly lower level: http://youtube.com/watch?v=1e1zzna-dNw

How is that lower level ?

He tries to discredit node by taking apart the copy on the front page of nodejs.org.

It's all conjecture and ad hominem.

Re: If you're using Node.js, you're doing life wrong

#72

Post by pnathan »

jim-greer wrote: post #10

If you get really angry about the choices other people make for their own work, you're doing life wrong.

Eh.

It's not limited in scope to someone else's work. I have done a decent review of a number historical computer science papers, I can confidently point to a number of things that have been pointlessly reinvented over the years at least once, if not 2-3 times.

It's like, why are people using these really bad technologies (node for instance)? There are are solid and advanced technologies that have done all these things, been tested, used, and developed over a long period of time, without the limitations of this newness and lack of features/testing/experience.

As a stupid example, a tracing simulator describing variable usage and coverage were commercially available for Fortran in the late 60s. I haven't heard of similar systems for C or C++ in my casual reading on C and C++. Perl has spent years working towards something that is starting to look a good deal like Lisp in Perl 6.

For node.js and golang and other asynchronous & message-based languages/platforms, see occam.

Why can't we look into the 70s and build new technologies instead of reinventing the same ones over and over again? That's why I get a bit miffed about new stuff that is the same as the old stuff, except Now For Modern Computers/The Web/Mobile/blah.

Re: If you're using Node.js, you're doing life wrong

#73

Post by rimantas »

irahul wrote: post #15

The Ruby and Python communities are just now, many years after the hype has faded, learning that stuff like dependency injection and proper modularization are actually good things that help you maintain code over time. This remark is off the mark. Dependency injection, as in injection by parameters and injection by constructors are so obvious people do it sub-consciously. A fluff word isn't needed for it. As far as I…

  > As far as IoC containers are concerned, I don't see
  > Ruby/Python communities using it, mainly because half of
  > it is fighting static typing.
Exactly. Jim Weirich gave a presentation on DI 2005 http://onestepback.org/articles/depinj/index.html also see a nice writeup by the Jamis Buck—the author of a couple of DI frameworks: http://weblog.jamisbuck.org/2008/11/9/legos-play-doh-and-pro...

http://weblog.jamisbuck.org/2008/11/9/legos-play-doh-and-pro...

Re: If you're using Node.js, you're doing life wrong

#74

Post by romaniv »

zzzeek wrote: post #32
jim-greer wrote: post #10

If you get really angry about the choices other people make for their own work, you're doing life wrong.

Approaches that become popular and highly publicized definitely impact everyone else's work in that field. Teams decide to migrate to those approaches, discarding others, based on perceived popularity, shallow impressions, small amounts of experimentation. Often, this is all we have to go on. But team members who have an intuition that the approach may have more problems than are first visible now have a choice, to e…

Good point. I think a lot of people who build commercial software have rather limited choice in which tools they use. They can choose how to use those tools and what to advocate publicly. If the hype about something forces me to use deficient tools, I will be angry it and vocal about it, because I care.

Re: If you're using Node.js, you're doing life wrong

#75

Post by bunderbunder »

awj wrote: post #61
DevX101 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socratic method for the win. Keep asking questions until THEY come the conclusion that what they were thinking was a dumb idea.

That works, but I think it's overkill. Generally the "don't argue like a jerk" method is sufficient.

And if you aren't good at it it's easy to come off as condescending. Thereby also causing you to be written off as a jerk.

Socrates was smart. He was also executed for being irritating.

Re: If you're using Node.js, you're doing life wrong

#76

Post by hello_moto »

pnathan wrote: post #72
jim-greer wrote: post #10

If you get really angry about the choices other people make for their own work, you're doing life wrong.

Eh. It's not limited in scope to someone else's work. I have done a decent review of a number historical computer science papers, I can confidently point to a number of things that have been pointlessly reinvented over the years at least once, if not 2-3 times. It's like, why are people using these really bad technologies (node for instance)? There are are solid and advanced technologies that have done all these thin…

Because people need something to work on for money, fame, or curiosity (less the latter and more of the former these days).

Re: If you're using Node.js, you're doing life wrong

#77

Post by chc »

jessedhillon wrote: post #64
chc wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is just wildly off the mark. You're comparing a framework to a language. DHH can't add features to MRI Ruby any more than Ryan Dahl can add features to V8 JavaScript.

Off the mark? Perhaps. Wildly so? Unlikely. But if that's so, then simply view this as an explanation for why I don't use server-side Javascript. And Node is still a tool built around a language implementation which is going in a different direction from where a server side environment/general-purpose language needs to go.

You're welcome to use whatever you like, of course — I'm just saying that you haven't really raised any specific objections that couldn't be (and haven't been) leveled against most other languages. Ignoring the confusion of a language and a framework, so far, your concrete objections seem to be:

• Node.js is a framework built by people other than the language's core maintainers (which is true of most frameworks)

• If you want to add fundamental language features, you can't just force it into the core implementation, but will have to implement your own offshoot (which is true of most languages, including, for example, Clojure)

If you're really concerned about other people's language choices, you're going to need concrete reasons, not just generalities, vague insinuations and your own personal preferences.

(Edited a bit to clarify and because the original phrasing sounded more combative than I intended.)

Re: If you're using Node.js, you're doing life wrong

#78

Post by crcn »

irahul wrote: post #15

The Ruby and Python communities are just now, many years after the hype has faded, learning that stuff like dependency injection and proper modularization are actually good things that help you maintain code over time. This remark is off the mark. Dependency injection, as in injection by parameters and injection by constructors are so obvious people do it sub-consciously. A fluff word isn't needed for it. As far as I…

This was my first thought. Languages require different design principles. If you're calling JavaScript "spaghetti code", then you're doing it wrong.

Re: If you're using Node.js, you're doing life wrong

#79

Post by Zancarius »

aiscott wrote: post #14

From the article: "The hype around Node.js on this issue makes me want to punch faces." "But the kind of misunderstanding going on in this video clip seems to pervade the Node.js hype and gives me rageface." This seems like a really over-the-top response to people that have a differing opinion. I can't take the rest of his post seriously after reading these parts. This certainly isn't the sort of thing you read in an…

That's also what I took away from it. Aggressive writing, insults, and condescending tone isn't a way to win friends and influence people--except, possibly, those who already agree (judging by the HN comments).

He seems to have some valid criticism, but I can't say it's anything I've heard before. If anything, the article itself is flamebait and at least partly intended to troll.

After browsing through the comments here on HN, I think he succeeded. But then, everyone likes a good flame war once in a while...

Re: If you're using Node.js, you're doing life wrong

#80

Post by batista »

crcn wrote: post #78
irahul wrote: post #15

The Ruby and Python communities are just now, many years after the hype has faded, learning that stuff like dependency injection and proper modularization are actually good things that help you maintain code over time. This remark is off the mark. Dependency injection, as in injection by parameters and injection by constructors are so obvious people do it sub-consciously. A fluff word isn't needed for it. As far as I…

This was my first thought. Languages require different design principles. If you're calling JavaScript "spaghetti code", then you're doing it wrong.

Languages require different design principles. If you're calling JavaScript "spaghetti code", then you're doing it wrong.

He's calling node style callbacks spaghetti code. Which it is, and it's a known problem, and there are several half-baked solutions for it.

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