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If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

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Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#71

Post by jrmg »

Mindwipe wrote: post #55
Xelynega wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not in court for the emergency library. They're in court for the 1-1 CDL lending they did. I'm tired of seeing this "well IA shouldn't have done the emergency library" line. Do you honestly believe the only reason publishers went after IA is the emergency library? I think this would have happened eventually, so pointing to the emergency library does nothing but tell everyone that you were right all along. The…

> They're not in court for the emergency library. They are in court for the "emergency library". The emergency library is a key part of the case. It's just inevitable that the lawsuit would also hinge on if 1 - 1 CDL is legally permissible and the case will inevitably have to rule on that. And yes, timing wise, and from the letters the publishes sent to the IA, they are explicitly about the "emergency library".

The emergency library is definitely not what the case is about. You can read the decision and it’s hardly mentioned.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.53...

It might be the case that it prompted publishers to file earlier, but I have a very hard time believing they’d have just let 1:1 digital-for-physical lending slide for ever if it hadn’t happened.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#72

Post by SllX »

jsnell wrote: post #7

The title implies that losing this lawsuit is threatening the existence of the Internet Archive. Is that really the case? If it is true, then maybe IA should be run by somebody with better judgement. This was a project with a massive chance of failure (how could anyone think that this wasn't just blatantly infringing?) and a low payoff. If it's also an existential risk, then wtf are they doing running it?

Depends on what they’re looking at in terms of statutory damages. Looking at their Form 990s they bring in roughly in the neighborhood of $15-20M/year in contributions. That isn’t really a lot, and makes me wonder how they ever defend themselves in court but somehow they’ve survived this long.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#74

Post by drdebug »

tablespoon wrote: post #23
jawns wrote: post #4

I know the government has viewed certain companies as "too big to fail," because of the negative financial impact we would experience if they were to do so. I wonder if there needs to be a cultural equivalent, where a repository of digital or physical artifacts is "too big to fail" because of the negative cultural impact their failure would have. In the absence of that, anyone who sees high cultural value to the pres…

> I know the government has viewed certain companies as "too big to fail," because of the negative financial impact we would experience if they were to do so. > I wonder if there needs to be a cultural equivalent, where a repository of digital or physical artifacts is "too big to fail" because of the negative cultural impact their failure would have. If there is, the Internet Archive isn't it. Yeah, it's super import…

Internet Archive is likely the only memory of the digital world. They may or may not have made a mistake during the covid pandemic by extending their book lending program, but in the age of IA where many text and images are going to lack any source of truth, they may be one of the very few ways to document modern history.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#75

Post by misnome »

tristor wrote: post #56

Frankly, what the IA did here is absolutely the right thing. Copyright in the US is horribly fundamentally broken, and the idea that factual information about our history and world should not be referenceable and accessible for free is a pretty heinous one. Information wants to be free, and the work that IA did for "digital lending" during the pandemic was an essential move in the direction of ensuring that people ca…

IA losing and getting shut down because "information wants to be free, man" is completely detrimental to trying to move that agenda forwards.

"First principles" means jack shit if your company to build that world gets wiped off the map because you did something incredibly obviously stupidly illegal and handed the "MAFIAA lawyers" your own ass on a silver platter.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#76

Post by ocdtrekkie »

tristor wrote: post #56

Frankly, what the IA did here is absolutely the right thing. Copyright in the US is horribly fundamentally broken, and the idea that factual information about our history and world should not be referenceable and accessible for free is a pretty heinous one. Information wants to be free, and the work that IA did for "digital lending" during the pandemic was an essential move in the direction of ensuring that people ca…

Whether you support copyright or not, the Internet Archive did a dumb thing that will probably cost us having the Internet Archive. Everyone is mad because everyone saw it coming and told them not to risk it all.

I'm not "supporting" the cops when I tell someone they should stop their car when they get pulled over. I'm recommending someone not get themselves shot.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#77

Post by breck »

I'd extend this to say, if we don't abolish (c)opywrong, we're screwed.

Does anyone want to go back to the closed source software development model of the 1990's? Then why do we not push for the open source model not only in software, but across news, academia, music, film, databases, et cetera? How many of your hard earned tax dollars go to pay for Microsoft's and Oracle's technical debt? How much of your tax dollars go pay for Elsevier's and Random House's and Wiley's closed source databases of publications? Why do we allow this inferior model of treating ideas to exist, when we now have solid data that the open way is far superior "for the progress of arts and sciences?".

Write your representatives. Organize your communities. It's time to pass a new Amendment to the Constitution:

    Section 1. Article I, Section 8, Clause 8 of this Constitution is hereby repealed.
    Section 2. Congress shall make no law abridging the right of the people to publish ideas.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#78

Post by cosinetau »

lyu07282 wrote: post #50
jawns wrote: post #4

I know the government has viewed certain companies as "too big to fail," because of the negative financial impact we would experience if they were to do so. I wonder if there needs to be a cultural equivalent, where a repository of digital or physical artifacts is "too big to fail" because of the negative cultural impact their failure would have. In the absence of that, anyone who sees high cultural value to the pres…

> we should be looking at ways to preserve those artifacts redundantly, so that even if the IA fails, it's not a calamity Its 212 petabytes as of december 2021[1], that alone would be a bit less than 12 thousand 18 TB HDDs or LTO-9's. We've made virtually zero significant progress in long-term storage technology. Its like if they are getting burned like the library of alexandria because of some copyright vampires, I…

Interestingly, IA partners with the modern Bibliotecha Alexandria to warehouse some of the archival material

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_Alexandrina#Intern...

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#79

Post by jrmg »

causi wrote: post #66
Xelynega wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not in court for the emergency library. They're in court for the 1-1 CDL lending they did. I'm tired of seeing this "well IA shouldn't have done the emergency library" line. Do you honestly believe the only reason publishers went after IA is the emergency library? I think this would have happened eventually, so pointing to the emergency library does nothing but tell everyone that you were right all along. The…

They were only sued after they launched the Emergency Library. Also, Koeltl's current ruling applies in particular to lending without the waitlist restriction is legal. CDL in general isn't yet ruled on. IA's actions with the NEL not only prompted the lawsuit in the first place but have almost certainly poisoned the well with regards to the final ruling on CDL.

Koeltl's current ruling applies in particular to lending without the waitlist restriction is legal. CDL in general isn't yet ruled on.

That’s not the case. The decision is clearly written, and clearly about CDL.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.53...

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#80

Post by i_k_k »

TylerE wrote: post #53
Apreche wrote: post #17

We already have laws for historical landmarks. These laws ensure the protection of things of societal significance, even to the point of restricting the rights of their private owners. We need such laws for the digital realm. If we had them we wouldn't have to worry about Internet Archive, dpreview, etc. Imagine if we had such laws in place long ago. We could be living in a world where Geocities and MySpace still exi…

Why should tax dollars be used for this?

Because government, and the tax dollars that support it, are how we, as a society, take collective action?
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