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$70 RISC-V Computer from Pine64 Goes on Sale April 4 – OMG Linux

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Re: $70 RISC-V Computer from Pine64 Goes on Sale April 4 – OMG Linux

#71
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have many op codes that bloat the instruction set, that need to be broken apart to fit into a multi-scalar design. This is over head that takes of silicon space. This is especially painful with multi-core designs since each core needs this. They may have memory models that make guarantees that are insignificantly secure or impede optimisation. There is something about condition codes vs explicit checks that made…

I don't dispute that legacy cruft is a problem, but I don't see how "not modern" (which still isn't defined) necessarily means legacy cruft. ARM or MIPS aren't especially recent in ISA terms, but I think most would agree each has less cruft in it than x86, for example.

Less than x86, certainly. That's a low bar.

MIPS has cruft in things such as architectural load and branch delay slots. Helped in the first, simple, implementation but just (worse than) useless baggage after that. Instructions that trap on overflow too. Helped on some programs on simple implementations, but on an OoO implementation just the mere existence vastly complicates the pipeline even if programs don't use them.

With Arm, the bitmapped arbitrary set of registers load/store/push/pop is cruft that helped the first simple implementations (especially ones without icache). Same with the predication on every instruction. It uses a ton of instruction encoding space, doesn't get used much outside of conditional branches, and in modern implementations branch prediction is usually so good that you don't want to predicate instructions -- certainly not several in a row. Arm is deprecating IT* predication in Thumb2 now also. Also PC as a general register is harmful to modern implementations. ANY instruction with r15 as the destination can change control flow -- load, add, xor .. whatever. At least you can tell at instruction decode time, but it needs both opcode and dst register to tell.

Aarch64 fixes most of the traditional Arm cruft (everything mentioned above) and is a pretty good ISA. The main faults are that it still has condition codes (no other high performance ISA designed after 1990 does), insistence on the purity of 4-byte instructions only (Thumb2 showed that the benefit is well worth the small cost), and just the simple fact that there is TOO MUCH of it and no subsets allowed, making it impractical for small CPUs e.g. microcontrollers.

Re: $70 RISC-V Computer from Pine64 Goes on Sale April 4 – OMG Linux

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if there are over a billion phones sold per year Arm clearly don’t charge anywhere near $10 per smartphone CPU.

Not on average, obviously. But most phones sold are low end. I bet Arm gets a lot more than $1 from ARMv9 Snapdragon 8 gen 1/2 with the very latest cores.

So you’re complaining that Arm make more than a dollar on the latest multi core CPU on an absolutely top end smartphone that retails for probably near $1000. Seems like a perfectly reasonable deal to me!

Re: $70 RISC-V Computer from Pine64 Goes on Sale April 4 – OMG Linux

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not on average, obviously. But most phones sold are low end. I bet Arm gets a lot more than $1 from ARMv9 Snapdragon 8 gen 1/2 with the very latest cores.

So you’re complaining that Arm make more than a dollar on the latest multi core CPU on an absolutely top end smartphone that retails for probably near $1000. Seems like a perfectly reasonable deal to me!

Who is complaining? I'm merely pointing out that not all those cores are licensed for 10c each. Many go for a lot less, some go for a lot more. It's been a struggle but I'd glad we agree on that now.

Now we can discuss what the scope is for RISC-V companies to charge for cores or chips.

Jim Keller said yesterday that in 2024 his company will have an 8-wide RISC-V core, on a chip, that performs on a par with Apple M1/M2 and Zen 5.

Performance gap between RISC-V and x86 down to zero.

I suspect that in 2024 he means expensive shuttle run chips. But working and able to be demoed. Mass-production chips are usually 12-24 months later.

Re: $70 RISC-V Computer from Pine64 Goes on Sale April 4 – OMG Linux

#74

At some point some RISC-V researchers tried to put GPU instructions in CPU. It seems no RISC-V implementation uses it.

Perhaps you mean "serial raiser of money but never delivering a product" Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton. See, for example https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop On the other hand, existing GPU company Think Silicon spent six weeks in October/November 2019 adding some GPU instructions to RISC-V, showed it running in an FPGA at their booth at the December 2019 RISC-V Summit, and are shipping the resulting produ…

I am talking about Think Silicon. Thanks. It should become standard for developer boards.
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