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Docker

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Re: Docker

#71

Post by 8n4vidtmkvmk »

kinghuang wrote: post #9
soneil wrote: post #6

The narrative seems quite clear to me. They released the tooling and the services to become the defacto solution, and then Swarm was supposed to be the cashcow that turned that into cashflow. And then k8s happened. They've raised a tonne of capital, and it probably looked sane at the time. And now they're grasping at straws trying to figure out how else they can turn this into revenue. A lot of the recent narrative h…

I feel like all that VC money was actually their undoing. Instead of working with the community, Docker spent bucketloads of money acquiring a lot of community projects and startups in an obvious attempt to become an end-to-end container solution company. But, they didn't have a plan and ended up killing most of those acquisitions. To me, it felt like Docker was using all the money they got to squash the community in…

Moby doesn't seem excellent either. at least the tickets I've stumbled into the stewards have not been very receptive

Re: Docker

#72

Post by 8n4vidtmkvmk »

ghshephard wrote: post #26

As a newcomer to the devops world I was kind of surprised at the general thesis of this article, that companies use docker hub and using something different is awkward. Neither of the two companies I’ve worked for use it (artifacory in both cases) and there is a general taboo around having docker desktop binaries on any company systems (though docker engine seems to be prevalent). I guess I had just assumed that the…

as a 1 man shop i actually went back to docker hub after my DO based registry started flaking. tbf i was self hosting the registry because I'm cheap but the images were in do spaces. worked fine for a couple years then became unreliable. knowing not much else i decided to give hub the $5/mo or whatever to save me the pain. not looking forward to figuring out what magic auth keys i need to reconfigure to pull from somewhere else now

Re: Docker

#73

Post by sirius87 »

eastbound wrote: post #63
sirius87 wrote: post #44

In its weird death spiral, if Docker Inc. were to be bought out by Microsoft, I shudder to think how much of the dev ecosystem would yet again depend on Microsoft's good graces to shoulder the burden of storage and data transfer costs for building products. They already do npm and Github (+ Github Container Registry) so they have some standing in being stewards in this space. On the plus side, it would perhaps give e…

> I shudder to think how much of the dev ecosystem would yet again depend on Microsoft's good graces to shoulder the burden of storage and data transfer costs for building products Does that hint that the model of sending around megabytes-to-multigigabytes of VMs is inherently too expensive to maintain as a backbone for an awesome tool? For the same reason, I wonder why provides Maven Central and NPM repositories, wh…

> model of sending around megabytes-to-multigigabytes of VMs is inherently too expensive

Yes. I think automated build pipelines running 24x7 that could request even for the oldest version of a sizable image without caching at their end is part of the issue. There was no limit that I'm aware of on the no. of tags/versions per image or per OSS account on DockerHub, so just like package repositories, effectively every image had to be available forever and each image was of significant size. I don't believe storage and network tx costs have reduced at the same rate as increase in adoption of build pipelines and automation.

Same issue exists for apt, NPM, Maven, PyPi, or any other repository, but yes, the storage requirement should be significantly smaller.

Aside: Because Java has been around for so long in enterprises, many have learned over time to set up registries internally - a combination of wanting to host private packages securely on prem and protecting from downtime, supply-chain attacks. JFrog Artifactory is pretty commonly seen. However, IIRC npm registry was not easy to self-host on prem in the early days, and many enterprises had their private packages hosted on npm.

Re: Docker

#74

Post by justsomehnguy »

> Docker images are relatively large, and Docker Hub became so central to the use of Docker that it became common for DevOps toolchains to pull images to production nodes straight from Docker Hub

Not only that, but it was actively encouraged by all Docker fanbois to pull as soon as you can. When I saw Watchtower the first time I was just speechless.

Though IMO they had a chance at getting money long before that debacle: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34377674

Re: Docker

#75

Post by croes »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #47

How does the Docker story compare to NPM who are also freely hosting a bunch if stuff, heavily downloaded and relying on some paid users but mostly free. And NPM has “competing” repositorys too. Could the same happen with NPM where they need to charge? I get that NPM packages are smaller than docker images typically.

Maybe because they are owned by Microsoft

Re: Docker

#76

Post by Kwpolska »

8n4vidtmkvmk wrote: post #70
BossingAround wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if Docker Inc. were to be bought out by Microsoft... You can always use Podman. We already have fully OSS solutions in the container space.

podman runs or builds containers? as far as i understand it docker desktop does 2 or 3 different things and i haven't managed to untangle that yet because it hasn't fully broken my workflow yet. getting more and more tempting to remove it but i need something for my weird windows+wsl setup

Docker Desktop runs dockerd in WSL and adds a few things to enable working with it from Windows (e.g. installs the docker CLI on the Windows side and exposes the dockerd control socket to it). You can easily get rid of it and replace it with running dockerd in WSL on your own, or with podman-based tools.

Re: Docker

#77

Post by justsomehnguy »

rtpg wrote: post #36
_boffin_ wrote: post #33

Question: Possible for Docker to die as a company; VC's lose their money; the technology survives and is still the mainstay? if the answer is no, what's the future and what do you expect the timeline will be? have a probability of that actually occurring?

I don’t know how Docker Hub falling by the wayside plays out. I suppose most cloud providers really should offer their own container image repo mirrors or something instead. But it’ll be painful Wild to me that Docker inc. Doesn’t just charge to pull prebuilt images. Just send docker files!

Yeah, I would like to build something against FROM debian:wheezy.

Re: Docker

#78

Post by johannes1234321 »

8n4vidtmkvmk wrote: post #69
sirius87 wrote: post #44

In its weird death spiral, if Docker Inc. were to be bought out by Microsoft, I shudder to think how much of the dev ecosystem would yet again depend on Microsoft's good graces to shoulder the burden of storage and data transfer costs for building products. They already do npm and Github (+ Github Container Registry) so they have some standing in being stewards in this space. On the plus side, it would perhaps give e…

they're hosting npm now? i didn't know

https://github.blog/2020-03-16-npm-is-joining-github/

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22884586

Re: Docker

#79

Post by Dalewyn »

mitchellh wrote: post #10

I’m someone who had a front row seat to the emergence of Docker, and some might say competed with them (I’d disagree on that point). I don’t plan on commenting on their company, business model, or recent decisions. The only thing I want to comment on is the claim Docker was evolutionary, not revolutionary. I disagree, I believe Docker /was/ revolutionary. And I feel like I see heavy technologists make this sort of di…

>The kernel of truth is that the technology itself isn’t valuable; it’s the /humanization/ of a technology, how it interfaces with the people who use it every day.

Apple in a nutshell.

Re: Docker

#80

Post by sofixa »

emptysongglass wrote: post #64
sofixa wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

k8s is good, but complex, and thus not fit for everyone and everything, but gets overused to death due to being the most popular choice, thus you have a lot of people that dislike it due to bad experience.

There's an absolutely massive ecosystem of tooling around it to make a developer's life easier and abstract away the confusing parts. No one needs to write K8s manifests directly if they don't want to.

The abstractions work very well, until they don't and you need to dive in 5 abstractions deep to debug what's happening, or an upgrade needs to be done and you have conflicting dependencies a few levels deep.
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