Live data from Hacker News

Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

science.org

71–80 of 153 posts

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#71
post #60
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"beer"... /ducks

Ok now I’m curious what beer is served at CERN. I am not familiar with any Swiss beer and only a handful of unspectacular French beers.

In 1996 maybe Heineken: https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/flaschen-im-ring-a-45296...

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#72
post #60
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"beer"... /ducks

Ok now I’m curious what beer is served at CERN. I am not familiar with any Swiss beer and only a handful of unspectacular French beers.

I don’t know about the beer at CERN specifically but the beer culture of Geneva generally is subpar.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#73
post #37

The real problem is that theoretical particle physics had hit a local optimum that they can't break out of. String theory hasn't panned out, quantum gravity hasn't panned out, and no one really knows where to go next.

This is a complete misunderstanding of the state of physics. The problem is not theoretical physics, if anything, the problem lies in our technological/engineering prowess that has not been able to follow our advances in physics. The Standard Model has some issues but it's, in principle, a valid effective description of all the fundamental forces minus gravity. The issue is that quantum effects of gravity are negligi…

Sure blame the experimentalists. If the theorists are so smart maybe they can use their immense brilliance to draw on their chalkboards with femtoscale precision. All joking aside, while you are correct that we don't really have the technological ability to advance on a better theory of Quantum Gravity. But theorists need a rich experimental backdrop for their work to be meaningful. Since this is lacking, theoretical physics has produced a glut of plausible models that all arrive at similar answers from very different first principles. This leads to the sense that none of them are decisively right or wrong and the pursuit of yet more models is a meaningless project. Yes the root problem is with the experimentalists, but the theorists suffer the consequences.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#74

My Fermilab story: when I was designing my dissertation experiment it became clear that i would need ~$100k in silicon strip charged particle detectors, and that no company would ever microbond the thousands of connections for me due to the low volume. Fermilab gave me detectors that had been QC rejects from the outer barrel of the CMS detector at CERN for free, and bonded them to my boards for essentially materials…

Reminds me of this story: https://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-caltech-glassb... There are continuous technical workforce challenges in science because the methods keep advancing. If only there were money it. Instead we have engineers, scientists, and physicians driving Uber and we outsource and offshore the entire scientific supply chain.

I don't know if that is true. Stuff just changes. To solve similar problems to this, my lab developed sapphire metal bonding techniques that could be run with CNC machined parts. Everything became nice and reliable and repeatable.

We lose techniques all the time but gain new ones. I designed a scientific instrument once that had a long precision bore through it. I designed it with the belief that I needed clearances for a large stiff boring bar to make the feature.

I showed the prints to my machinist, and he told me they were just gonna put it on the five axis and hit the bore on both sides with an end mill. That it was as accurate as how the old guys did it.

It was.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#75
A big issue at these labs is that there's this idea that people with PhDs think only others with technical PhDs can manage things. Management takes a certain set of skills, and quite a lot of PhDs have zero experience outside of academic environments with managing things.

> “We did not write a very good contract for the excavation,” ... “There were all kinds of loopholes in it, and the excavation company made an awful lot of money off of us.”

Another thing that strikes me is, why is construction in the U.S. so corrupt and such a money pit? I don't think I have ever heard of a large construction project being delivered on time and on budget. I understand construction is very difficult, but it just seems out of control.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#76
post #37

The real problem is that theoretical particle physics had hit a local optimum that they can't break out of. String theory hasn't panned out, quantum gravity hasn't panned out, and no one really knows where to go next.

This is a complete misunderstanding of the state of physics. The problem is not theoretical physics, if anything, the problem lies in our technological/engineering prowess that has not been able to follow our advances in physics. The Standard Model has some issues but it's, in principle, a valid effective description of all the fundamental forces minus gravity. The issue is that quantum effects of gravity are negligi…

[deleted]

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#77

Some categories shouldn't be privatized like medicine, military arms, basic science, road maintenance, and emergency rescue operations. Elon isn't going to work on particle physics without a direct commercial purpose.

Who decides what “basic science” is?

For the longest time, scientific research performed two significant functions beyond its stated mission of discovering things:

1: It kept a workforce advancing, both at the labs themselves, and at all the suppliers and manufacturers who fed into them. Those mega-budgets weren't buying mega-yachts for the lab directors; they flowed into mega-upgrades for industry, who could score "juicy government lab contracts" and advance their capabilities, which then paid dividends for the rest of the sector.

2: It supplied national prestige. The best and brightest from all over the world would fall over themselves to work in labs here. The moon landing shattered records for the most-watched TV broadcast ever, and a billion people knew America was on top of the world.

Both of these had significant trickle-down effects, which I don't think were fully appreciated until we let them rot on the vine.

I think "science" in the sense that GP uses it, should refer to any research that ticks both of the above boxes.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#78
post #73
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a complete misunderstanding of the state of physics. The problem is not theoretical physics, if anything, the problem lies in our technological/engineering prowess that has not been able to follow our advances in physics. The Standard Model has some issues but it's, in principle, a valid effective description of all the fundamental forces minus gravity. The issue is that quantum effects of gravity are negligi…

Sure blame the experimentalists. If the theorists are so smart maybe they can use their immense brilliance to draw on their chalkboards with femtoscale precision. All joking aside, while you are correct that we don't really have the technological ability to advance on a better theory of Quantum Gravity. But theorists need a rich experimental backdrop for their work to be meaningful. Since this is lacking, theoretical…

I wouldn't even go so far as to say it's either the theorists or experimentalists fault. The problem might just be that it becomes physically impractical to the point of practical impossibility to observe the nature of things beyond a certain scale to us. And that's just, you know, the nature of things.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#79
post #60
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"beer"... /ducks

Ok now I’m curious what beer is served at CERN. I am not familiar with any Swiss beer and only a handful of unspectacular French beers.

If my memory does not fail me, that would be Feldschlösschen: https://feldschloesschen.ch/

(2003-2007 period)

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#80
post #60
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"beer"... /ducks

Ok now I’m curious what beer is served at CERN. I am not familiar with any Swiss beer and only a handful of unspectacular French beers.

I don't think it was particularly good or bad, when I was there. I don't drink beer none of my friends ever said "this beer is great" or "this beer sucks".
Post reply on HN