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Community’s 25yrs without a newborn shows scale of Japan’s population crisis

cnn.com

71–80 of 134 posts

Re: Community’s 25yrs without a newborn shows scale of Japan’s population crisis

#71
post #12

In times of crisis during war, countries may draft men into combat to fight against their will. If this fertility crisis keeps up, I wonder if we will see a similar kind of draft for women to breed. It seems unconscionable but literal existential risks can drive countries to do a lot of unconscionable things. (Immigration isn’t the answer, their fertility rate also gets depressed just like the native population. All…

> but literal existential risks Unpopular opinion (and playing devil’s advocate since I have two kids), but is it necessarily a bad thing if people stop wanting to have children and the human race just gradually disappears? There are a lot of other types of potential existential threats on the horizon that might be unsolvable and could entail a significant amount of suffering (e.g. global warming, super viruses, rogu…

“Is it necessarily a bad thing if people stop wanting to have children and the human race just gradually disappears?”

People can make up their own minds on this, but I don’t think states and governments will want to stop existing.

Re: Community’s 25yrs without a newborn shows scale of Japan’s population crisis

#72
post #37

This article seems to skip the important part - what is the current leading theory for why Japanese women don't want to have children?

Is it for sure the women that don't want to have children, or is it more cross-gender? Would the involuntarily celibate Japanese men breed with consenting foreign women?

Re: Community’s 25yrs without a newborn shows scale of Japan’s population crisis

#73
Rural Japanese communities are seriously depressing. Dilapidated houses inhabited by octogenarian and nonagenarian widows. Shuttered primary schools. Rusted jungle gyms in parks that are overgrown with weeds.

When my family first moved to Japan, we spent a few months living with our in-laws in a rural agricultural village. Not even that rural by Japanese standards, it’s only a 10 minute drive from a relatively thriving city center. But there are telltale signs of a shrinking and aging population everywhere you look. I remember one day I took my three year old son to the park, and it was just so quiet (except for the sound of bugs and frogs), and so neglected, that I was overcome with sadness and hopelessness. It reminded me of “Childhood’s End” by Arthur C. Clark.

We ended up buying a house on the other side of the city in a relatively new housing development and it’s basically the complete opposite. Kids are out playing in the street and nearby parks, neighbors are friendly - it’s a great place to raise a family.

I can definitely understand why rural communities are being hit especially hard by shrinking population, and how one could go 25 years without any babies being born. Nobody (or most people, at least, the family in this story is definitely the exception) wants to raise a family where there are no other families around, the elementary school has been closed, job opportunities are scarce, etc. So people move elsewhere.

Re: Community’s 25yrs without a newborn shows scale of Japan’s population crisis

#74
post #12

In times of crisis during war, countries may draft men into combat to fight against their will. If this fertility crisis keeps up, I wonder if we will see a similar kind of draft for women to breed. It seems unconscionable but literal existential risks can drive countries to do a lot of unconscionable things. (Immigration isn’t the answer, their fertility rate also gets depressed just like the native population. All…

> but literal existential risks Unpopular opinion (and playing devil’s advocate since I have two kids), but is it necessarily a bad thing if people stop wanting to have children and the human race just gradually disappears? There are a lot of other types of potential existential threats on the horizon that might be unsolvable and could entail a significant amount of suffering (e.g. global warming, super viruses, rogu…

It's a pure hypothetical because the people who do reproduce under conditions of modernity will become the future population.

Re: Community’s 25yrs without a newborn shows scale of Japan’s population crisis

#75

It's worth noting that Japan has higher fertility right now than any peer country in the region, their collapse just started a bit earlier than China/Korea/Taiwan. Believe it or not, Japan is vastly better situated than South Korea or China for what's about to happen.

>Japan is vastly better situated than South Korea or China for what's about to happen

Depends how better situated is defined.

Advanced economies like JP, SKR or TW (and most of EU) with relatively maxed out human capital (~80% skilled workforce) are undergoing net demographic decline that will stagnate/contract their economies while accumulating increasingly onerous welfare commitments.

Versus PRC, whose only at ~25% skilled workforce, with lots of poor before rich aging cohorts that will be replaced by more productive newer generations, still has vast development + economic headroom even with less net population. Meanwhile poor before rich cohorts = expectation of welfare less demanding - many do not expect much in the first place. Hence most poor in PRC have high homeownership and household savings rate to weather the lack of anticipated state support (96% in poorer rural regions). They're vastly different scenarios to manage politically - average PRC retiree is going to have to suffice with much less vs retiree from an advanced economy, but that's expected from old before rich societies. Or just plain not rich societies, i.e. most societies throughout history.

But where PRC is vastly better situated, than just about anyone, including immigration heavy advanced economies, at any time in recorded human history, is PRC workforce trending from 25% skilled workforce to 70-80% over next decades - generations of high skill demographic dividend and high-value economic development is JUST starting in PRC. Quick napkin math, PRC will be recomposing the current 750M workforce with ~200M skilled to shrunken 700M workforce but with 450-550M skilled (+250-300M). For reference, current JP is like 55M skilled out of 70M workforce, demographic decline will lead to economic contraction. Also consider 2000 PRC GDP ~1T @ ~2M STEM grads, 2022 GDP ~18T @ ~17M STEM. Projected 2030 STEM @ ~50M, likely topout ~80-100M @ 2050. That's 4-5 extra current JPs worth of growth left, which will increase capacity to weather demographic decline from baseline, which might still be low relatively, but again, that's an entirely different demographic/political situation to engineer around.

The TLDR is many advanced economies are in net demographic decline with increasingly onerous welfare requirements, vs PRC has massive high skilled demographic dividend to buffer net demographic decline from old/poor cohorts on their way who also has savings to retire meagrely because they simply don't expect much from state in the first place. IMO person is better situated to retire in the former, but a governance better situated to manage in the latter.

Re: Community’s 25yrs without a newborn shows scale of Japan’s population crisis

#76
post #59
post #42

For anyone asking why this is a problem, our social system is setup that the younger working generations help the elderly and retired. Ideally you want a generational pyramid to sustain retirement and insurance funds, with the youngest being the base. However if the pyramid gets flipped where you have way more elderly and retired who need to be sustained financially and need care the system starts to collapse. What e…

> It would seem we live in a world where it's simply too difficult, too unfordable, too little time, and too many problems to have children at a rate These reasons are a lie. The parents of boomers had less disposable income than we do, they were living in a generation devastated by war(s) and they had very much longer working hours that we do now. We have just decided that we don't want to have children, it's not be…

It’s both much more expensive and more time consuming to have a child today compared to <60s.

Re: Community’s 25yrs without a newborn shows scale of Japan’s population crisis

#77

How unhinged is it to call the lack of exponential population growth a crisis? There are enough (way too many in fact) people already. The social and economic mechanisms just have to adapt to the steady-state or even decreasing population levels. We should be grateful it is happening spontaneously, instead of having to think of instituting invasive policies to limit growth.

How unhinged is it to call the lack of exponential population growth a crisis? That is not what is being called a crisis. Fertility rate being *far* below replacement (1.3 vs 2.1) is being called a crisis. If the population falls to quickly the ratio of young to old gets unbalanced and there are not enough people young enough to do the work needed to support the population too old to work. All the products and servic…

Fertility rate in Japan is far below replacement. Fertility rate globally is above replacement rate. They could just allow people in.

Re: Community’s 25yrs without a newborn shows scale of Japan’s population crisis

#78
post #12

In times of crisis during war, countries may draft men into combat to fight against their will. If this fertility crisis keeps up, I wonder if we will see a similar kind of draft for women to breed. It seems unconscionable but literal existential risks can drive countries to do a lot of unconscionable things. (Immigration isn’t the answer, their fertility rate also gets depressed just like the native population. All…

> (Immigration isn’t the answer, their fertility rate also gets depressed just like the native population. All it achieves is to balance the birth/death rate on paper for the year.)

If fertility rate gets depressed then just keep letting in more people. I don't see how it isn't the answer if your objective is to keep the population at a stable level.

Re: Community’s 25yrs without a newborn shows scale of Japan’s population crisis

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hell? Japan is no USA or Canada but the discrimination isn't that bad , it's pretty on par with the rest of east Asia except maybe Singapore and certainly better than China.

East Asia is a big place. Taiwan definitely treats its foreigners and ethnic minorities a lot better than Japan. On the other hand, China has concentration camps for its ethnic minorities. Yes Japan doesn’t have concentration camps for Ainu, so I guess they’re doing OK?

> Taiwan definitely treats its foreigners and ethnic minorities a lot better than Japan.

Source?

Re: Community’s 25yrs without a newborn shows scale of Japan’s population crisis

#80
post #59
post #42

For anyone asking why this is a problem, our social system is setup that the younger working generations help the elderly and retired. Ideally you want a generational pyramid to sustain retirement and insurance funds, with the youngest being the base. However if the pyramid gets flipped where you have way more elderly and retired who need to be sustained financially and need care the system starts to collapse. What e…

> It would seem we live in a world where it's simply too difficult, too unfordable, too little time, and too many problems to have children at a rate These reasons are a lie. The parents of boomers had less disposable income than we do, they were living in a generation devastated by war(s) and they had very much longer working hours that we do now. We have just decided that we don't want to have children, it's not be…

Wars and natural disasters destroy NIMBY gerontocracy. Burning down a city means that the people are no longer concerned with opposing incremental change. The construction process is trivial so the city will quickly grow to what is actually necessary to support its population.

The current generation of youth and working young adults feels abandoned and unecessary, why put more abandoned and unecessary people on this planet? The shrinking population is only a problem for old people, who themselves benefit from a shrinking population right now.

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